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Edip Yuksel vs. Ali Sina
Round VII -25
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It seems either you have amnesia or you do
not really read my answers. I had, in the past, answered the same
question of yours. Let me cut and paste my answer here, again.
(Well, I confess that I made to minor changes in spelling and
grammar. This will leave something for those Christian detectives
who have ample time and curiosity for the frivolous; they will find
the corrected words and will accuse me in other threats of this
forum for changing my past answers to their guru! Seriously, Ali,
how could you attract so many followers with such a hobby and so
much time?). Yes, here is the answer:
You share a strikingly similar poor
knowledge of the Quran with Sunnis and Shiites. You use the same
lousy argument. If you were able to read the Quran without smelling
the piles of hadith, you would easily notice that 33:21 had
preceding and succeeding verses and the example of prophet was his
bravery in defending Muslims against the aggressor army of Meccan
oligarchy. If your knowledge of the Quran were a little bit beyond
the surface, you would also notice that verse 60:4 uses exactly the
same description, "good example", for Abraham and his
supporters. Using your logic Muslims should have had the hadith of
Abraham and his supporters too! Perhaps, you will find the story of
another hungry holy goat eating those hadith collections to be
"not illogical." |
I believe we already
discussed this point. Yes people had heard many stories about
Abraham and when Muhammad says he was a good example, they could relate to
it. Abraham was famous through Old and New Testaments, Jewish
sources, Christian sources etc. Many of these sources found their way in
the Quran, e.g. the story of Abraham's dad being an idol maker and of
Abraham smashing the idols come from preexisting Jewish sources. But,
where do we find Muhammad's example set forth in the way that Abraham's
example had been committed to writing? The Quran vaguely mentions him. It
only says he is a good example to follow but no details. Why is he a good
example?
As I said before, if someone
says be like Job, we all know he means be patient in adversities. But if I
tell you be like Jose, you have no clue what I am talking about because
you don’t know what Jose did. We surly cannot follow the example of
Muhammad as instructed by verse 33:21 without knowing anything about him.
Now let us think about it.
Suppose you are a detective investigating a crime. You approach someone
who is uncooperative, evasive and refuses to answer certain questions.
Doesn’t this immediately raise the red flag that he is hiding something?
The very fact that the submitters insist that no one should bring
up any of the incriminatory tales of their prophet and do all mental
gymnastics to avoid them, is proof enough that there is something they are
hiding.
This Book (the Quran) was
written by somebody. Who was that body? It claims to be a book of
salvation and morality and demands us to follow the example of its author.
It is very much different from a book written on science. I can study a
book of mathematics, geometry, chemistry or computer and do not need to
know anything about its author. The difference is that I am not submitting
my intelligence and will to someone else. I am not required to believe
anything. Everything is explained to me and I can verify them on my
own. But in the case of a religion such as Islam you are asked to
submit your intelligence and believe in one who claims to be the
mouthpiece of God. It is important to verify whether he is a liar or a
truthful person. If I claim to be a prophet, would you believe? Why not?
What proof should I give you to convince you that I am a prophet? What if
I am a psychopath, promising you the moon and taking you to hell? It would
be foolish to follow me without verifying my claim and my character.
You say the character of
Muhammad is absolutely irrelevant and you are not even willing to discuss
it. This very attitude is indication that you are hiding something. Why
the Christians don’t mind to talk about their prophet? They have
obviously nothing to hide. Of course I believe Jesus is a mythological
personage. Nonetheless, he is a saintly figure. So why are you so
embarrassed to talk about Muhammad? You say let us examine his claim only.
That is fine. Let us do that. Can you tell us what makes you believe that
he was a prophet of God and not a messenger of Satan, for example?
| Let me add this
too: according to the Quran, Muhammad could never have claimed to be
the best of the creation, since as a Muslim, he was ordered not to
distinguish among God's messengers (2:285), and be humble
(32:11-20). This is a lie fabricated by Muhammadans in their
polytheistic competition to top the idols of Christians. Ignorant
Hislamic scholars even fabricated many miracles, from splitting the
moon to jumbo sexual powers for Muhammad in their zeal to turn him
to a holy superman. |
Well as I quoted above, he
actually did claim to be exalted above other prophets in degrees (2:253);
and a “Mercy to the worlds” (21:107). These contradictions can be
easily explained when you see him as a pathological narcissist.
The narcissist flaunts his virtues such as hi
humility or his generosity as bait. He impresses others with his
selflessness and virtues and thus lures them into his lair, entraps them,
and manipulates and brainwashes them into subservient compliance and
obsequious collaboration.
Furthermore you are forgetting that Muhammad of Mecca
and Muhammad of Medina were two different persons. In
Mecca
Muhammad portrayed himself as just a simple prophet, only a warner.
But when he came to power and actually saw so many people are under
his command, his ego also swelled. A lot of discrepancies in the Quran can
be explained by simply knowing the period that they were written.
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