Quote:

Quote: I accuse Muhammad of being unfit and unworthy to be a messenger of God. who cares... yawn.... Quote: I’ll show that the Quran is not from God but a hodgepodge of nonsense and you can show that it is a miracle. no, no... Ali, this is not what my challenge to you , you can try to show your alleged claim of hodgepodge nonsense some other time... let us commit to specifics here, here is what we are going to debate, as I posted in my challenge: The topic will be Quran and Modern Science, by the grace of God, In the Ahmed - Giron debate, the Quran has been proved to be authored by a source greater than man and rendered a true living miracle for all times. You can download the debate from my website: http://www.ExamineTheTruth.com will give Ali Sina an opportunity to contest the evidence if he disagrees with the conclusion stated above. So, if Ali accepts, then he can download the debate, listen to it, and we will start our debate from their.... So my Challege to you is to contest the evidence we will not entertain red herrings... we can debate those other issues later... like preservation, inerrancy... etc. What we debate about will be directly related to the topic of the Ahmed-Giron Debate. But if you run Ali, then it will not be the first time ,many have done so,the Scientific and Archaeological evidences of the Quran is IRREFUTABLE .. .. I think you know that Ali... that probably explains your reluctancy.... Quote: However, since it seems that science and Quran is the lesson you have learned best and this is the only thing you want to talk about What the...??? I never stated that this is "the only thing I want to talk about" this is a LIE. Rather, this is what I stated: Quote: "I have challenged you first, soo we start with Quran and Science first, you can later challenge me to what ever topic you want." AND Quote: "Therefore, we debate the OBJECTIVE evidences first... then we debate the SUBJECTIVE evidences later..." You have already blatanly made a false statement against me! So much for your chantings: "I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me wrong or.... " "I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me wrong or.... " "I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me wrong or.... " The debate has not even begun yet and you have already been proven wrong! This is equivalent to a "first round knock down.. sending Sina crashing to the canvas..." lol So, please dont lie Ali Sina, this is not going to help you it will only make things worse... you dont want to end up like Dr. Robert Morey do you? http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm Let me know if you accept my challenge.. I have wasted enough time here.... thanks, Nadir Ahmed www.ExamineTheTruth.com

3-
The third “miracle” presented by Mr. Ahmed is the verse

25.53
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Muslims say this is a miracle because Muhammad, if not divinely inspired, could not have known that two bodies of water do not mix.

Again, this premise is wrong. First of all anyone going to the sea watching sweet waters carrying sediments flowing into the salty waters of the ocean can see they do not mix immediately. In fact this is quite a scene and people who observed it must have narrated to others in the land with amazement. This phenomenon was hence readily observable to everyone as it is today. Sailors must have noticed more buoyancy of their boats in the salty waters of the sea than when they were navigating in rivers and lakes of sweet water. Waters that have different salinity, density and temperature do not mix readily, however they do eventually. But Muhammad states that there is a barrier between them and a partition that is forbidden to be passed. This is of course not true. Muhammad must have heard about this phenomenon but his knowledge was not complete and he assumed that the waters never mix. That is why he is talking of barriers between the seas. There is no such barrier at all and all waters do mix.

This verse points to Muhammad’s ignorance and it is no miracle at all.


4-
The next “miracle” that has dumbfounded our friend is the verse 24:40 :

Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!

Mr. Ahmed wonders how in the world Muhammad could have known that the dept of the sea is dark. I wished our opponent had a little bit more commonsense. Isn’t this obvious to anyone who has taken a dive into the water to know that the deeper you go the darker it becomes? Mr. Ahmed is under the impression that all the humanity is bozo and cannot understand these simple facts that can be readily experienced by everyone. You surprise me Mr. Ahmed. Didn’t you really know that under the water there is less light? Did you have to read the Quran to learn this simple fact that is known to sun and dry even those who have no knowledge of the modern science?

I am always amazed to see the desperation of the Muslims to find miracles in the most banal statements of the Quran.

Mr. Ahmed, please understand that this verse is not trying to explain to the readers how the deep oceans look but it is exemplifying the state of the unbeliever with something that is already known to everyone. This shows that people who read this verse already knew that the dept of ocean is dark and with this example Muhammad tried to make them visualize the state of the unbeliever. If they did not know that the dept of the deeper waters are dark then the verse would not express what it intends to express. If I tell you my shirt is as green as my hat, when you have never seen my hat, you would not understand how green is my shirt and I would not be speaking clear to you. Remember, clarity is one of the claims of the Quran. But if I say my shirt is green like pine tree, you’ll soon know what kind of green I am talking about.

Furthermore Muhammad is not talking about “deep oceans”. In deep oceans you do not need to “stretch your hand” as Muhammad says, in order not to see it. You cannot see your hand without stretching it.


5-
The fifth miracle as stated by Mr. Ahmed is the verse 30:2 and 30:3

30.2
The Roman Empire has been defeated-
30.3
YUSUFALI: In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
PICKTHAL: In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious
SHAKIR: In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,


Mr. Ahmed claims that the word near (Adna) can also be translated as lower and hence the above could be read: The Roman Empire was defeated in the lowest land… Then Mr. Ahmad claims that since the Black Sea is it the lowest point on earth (1300 ft below sea level) then Muhammad has said something that no one could have known.

This is of course wishful thinking of a deluded believer and the absurdity of that is self-evident. The Romans were not defeated in the Red Sea but in Jerusalem and Jerusalem is above sea level. If we had to take Mr. Ahmed for his word and disregard the obvious meaning of the word, this verse would have become yet another blunder of Muhammad. However all the interpreters of the Quran have translated the verse correctly. If Muhammad really wanted to impress his readers he could have easily said that the Red Sea is the lowest land on Earth. Note that the verse is mentioning land and not sea. Muhammad is taking about the Jerusalem and not about the Red Sea.


6-
The sixth miracle according to Mr. Ahmed is the verse:

57.025
We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).

Mr. Ahmed says that according to the Modern science, iron is the only element that does not belong to the Earth but is sent from heaven to Earth and hence the above verse is a miracle.

The truth is that four billion years ago, when our planet was still a scorching ball of fire, a giant asteroid mostly made of metal struck the Earth scattering a lot of it to the sky. The asteroid however penetrated the core of the Earth. That is why the deeper we go the more metal we find. However iron was not the only metal found that came with that asteroid. It contained many other metals including gold.

The verse actually should not be taken literally. In this verse Muhammad is saying that we sent you everything that you need including iron with which has mighty power i.e. is strong and can benefit you as well. He did not mean that the iron, among all the elements, is the only element that has descended from the heaven. In Muhammad's language eveything is "sent' to man by God and that is the meaning of this word andalna here. He did not mean that God sent the iron from they sky but since the giver of the iron is God so the verb nadala is used. Somewhere else Muhammad says that He sent down cattle (39.6) Do we have to take this literally?


Mr. Ahmed in the defense of his theory states that the energy required to create one atom of iron equals several times the energy stored in the sun. This is obviously absurd. This gentleman makes up in bravado what he lacks in knowledge.


7-
The last “miracle” of the Quran mentioned by Mr. Ahmed is when Muhammad says: "Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion" (Qur'an 21:33; 36:40). Then he wonders: “How did the author of the Qur'an know of this?”

Anyone looking at the sky can see that the Sun and the Moon follow a fixed orbit. This was known to our ancestors since the dawn of time. However we see that the Sun and the Moon revolve around the Earth and this is the orbit that the Quran is talking about. What Quran says about the orbits of the Sun and the Moon is the observable and perceived orbits of these celestial objects caused by the rotation of the Earth. The Quran is talking about neither the actual orbit of the sun around the central star of the Milky Way that takes 226 million years nor the orbit of the moon around the Earth that takes 29 days. Muhammad is talking about the “perceived” orbit of these objects that takes 24 hours. Any ignorant man, even the animals, could observe what Muhammad observed. Any ignorant man could have said what Muhammad said. Muhammad was not aware of the actual orbit of the Moon that became known to humanity through the findings of Copernicus and Galileo let alone the orbit of the Sun that was discovered in the 20th century.

This is clear from the verse 2:189.

"They ask you about the new moon. Say: They indicate the periods for (various activities of) mankind, and for the pilgrimage."

Muhammad is asked about the moon and why it changes shape. This was a perfect opportunity for him to say it is because of the rotation of the moon around the Earth and because the light of the moon is a reflection of the light of the sun. But he did not know the right answer. He instead said that the Moon is a giant clock/calendar in the sky created for the believers to know what time of the month it is and when they should perform their pilgrimage.

Muhammad thought that the Sun and the Moon have similar orbits chasing each other in the sky while it is not allowed for the Sun to catch the Moon.

036:040
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.



We are dealing with a man with a very primitive mind. In the verse 10:5 Muhammad says that the Moon has its own light and then reiterates that it is a calendar in the sky, created for us humans to measure the time.

10:5
PICKTHAL: He it is Who appointed the sun a splendour and the moon a light, and measured for her stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge.

Of course both these statements are false. The Moon has no light of its own nor it has anything to do with us humans. The moon has been there probably as long as the Earth has been around and that is 4.5 billion years while we humans appeared on this planet only 100,000 ago and will most likely disappear much sooner than the moon. It is ridiculous to assume that the celestial objects have been created for us humans. We are merely one species among the millions inhabiting this planet. Nothing is created for us. These ideas are childish and do not belong to this day and age of enlightenment.

There is no doubt that Muhammad used to think that Moon gives light.

25.61
Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;

71.16
And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?

Of course the Moon is not a lamp and it does not give light. These verses are enough to prove that the Quran is not revealed by any knowledgeable god. Muhammad simply stated what was obvious to his eyes. His knowledge of the astronomy was no more than any ignorant man of his time.

This is also clear when he says that the Sun “rises” and “sets” in murky waters. 18.86

Mr. Ahmed, in his debate with Denis Giron makes an astounding statement. He says that the critics could say that the orbits of the Sun and the Moon mentioned in the Quran may indicate the rotation of these objects around the Earth. But he says this is not so because Muhammad did not say such thing.

This reminds me of a joke we used to tell each other when in primary school. “We Iranians used to have wireless technology in our ancient civilization. Why? Because the archeologists have not been able to find any wire in the old ruins.”

Of course we were kids and this was a joke. However it seems that the brain of some grownup Muslims is even less evolved than that of the children. So according to our esteemed opponent, if Muhammad did not say that the orbit he was talking about is the rotation of the Sun around the Earth, he must have meant the rotation of the Sun around the black hole in the Milky Way. It does not even occur to him to ask, if that was the case why he did not say that. Why he did not clarify that the moon rotates around the Earth and the Earth rotates around the center of the Milky Way? The Milky Way is very visible in the deserts of Arabia. Muhammad stated what he saw. That is virtually the same thing my cat can see. That is the Sun and the Moon have orbits and they rotate the Earth.

These are the “miracles of science” that Mr. Ahmad wanted me to respond to. Actually Denis already responded to all these claims. However Denis is very cautious and does not call the Quran to be a hodgepodge of gibberish. He tries to be politically correct. He is even afraid to call a spade a spade and say all these verses are rubbish. He goes only as far to say that the “knowledge” contained in these verses were already known to humans prior to Muhammad. What knowledge? Most of the Quran is garbage.

The soft attitude of Denis has emboldened Ahmed who claims the possibility of Muhammad in being right in each and every one of these verses is 1/500,000. Then he multiplies all these fractions and comes with an astronomically minute number and states that the chance of Muhammad just guessing the correct answer each and every time is less than one over a number with 26 zeros in front of it.

Dear. Mr. Ahmed. Please do not be fooled by Denis’s niceness. He is just trying to be politically correct. The truth is that your Quran is the stupidest book ever written. There are not one or two but hundreds of errors in that book. It is a shame that a man like you is so blinded with faith that cannot see the obvious errors of this book. But stick around. Don’t go anyway. We will go over this book together and will find out more inanities of it together.

If you have finished with your “miracles”, this time allow me to dig into that cesspool called Quran and pull out verses that would embarrass you or hopefully open your eyes.

You also seem to not pay much attention to what others say. You have learned only one subject and you think this is such a big hit that you want to play it in every occasion. Sadly you are not intelligent enough to see when you are defeated. Dr. Morey, obviously saw you are not a scholar and did not think you are worth his time. You go around claiming you have defeated him? How you have defeated him when he did not even dignify you with a response? The reason he gave is that your way of debating is insulting your opponent. That is ad hominem and highly unscholarly. I do not blame him for not giving you much credence. You claim that you defeated Denis Giron. I listened to your debate with him and to me it is clear that you are the one who is defeated.

Judging by your performance and especially by your boasting and bravado, it is clear that you are not a scholar but a little man in search of fame. You try to debate with some recognized names on the net and even though they do not respond to you add them to your portfolio to make yourself look bigger that who you really are. I knew your games. At first, like Dr. Morey, I thought you are not really worth my time. But seeing your boastfulness and bluster, I thought you would benefit if I put you in your place and amuse the Internet folk at your expense. Perhaps this will teach you some humility and help you to become a better debater.

I will continue debating with you, provided you behave like a scholar. Fortunately I heard your voice and you sound like a grown up man. Otherwise judging by your bluster and arrogance I would have suspected you are just a teenager. If you want to debate with me, you are required to behave like a scholar. I hope that is clear.

Now back to our discussion. You did not comment on my statement that even if the Quran is proven to be a miracle (which of course as we are seeing it is not) Muhammad cannot be hailed as a prophet. The ethics and morality of Muhammad are crucial to determine his truthfulness. A liar cannot be a prophet. Is that clear? Do you agree with this? Do you agree that if the Quran is proven to be a miracle as you say and Muhammad is proven to be a criminal, there is a good chance that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad by Satan? I need your statement on this subject before we can continue with our study of the Quran.

Furthermore, please respond to other members. They are all better scholars than you. So debating with them will certainly add to your profile and make you look important.


Kind regards


P.S. We generally treat our guests and oponents with respect. However your chest beating and swelling claiming to have won when we did not even start to debate was a factor for me to deal with you in this way and bruise your nose so hopefully you become more respectful in your future correspondance.

If anything you failed to answer my claim that even if the Quran is proven to be a miracle still Muhammad cannot be called a prophet. This would only prove that he was inspired by Satan. Your silence in this regard tells me you have no response for that and hence you are the defeated one in this first round.[img][/img][img][/img]
_________________
Doubt everything, find your own light!

Last edited by Ali Sina on Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:17 pm; edited 7 times in total