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Spinoza
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1401
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 Posted:
Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:06 pm
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I listened to Denis
Giron's debate and I thought the argument of 'chance' was
rather ridiculous.
Scrape together a few post facto mircles of
reinterpretation, ignore the fact that most of the Quran
contains complete idiocy and quite a few errors and
inconsistencies (which require tremendous amounts of
doublethink, blissful ignorence and mental gymnastics to
swallow) and claim the divine (!) authorship of that
wicked piece of 'literatuur' has been 'proved'.
_________________
Ceterum Censeo Somnium Rabidum Esse Refutandum. |
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Farside
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 345
Location: The Other Side
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| Posted:
Sat Jan 03, 2004 7:34 pm
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Nadir_ahmed
to the FFI forum!
This reply has nothing to do with the theme of this
thread, but since you are an Islamic expert I might as
well ask you a question. Do you know of an online English
translation of the Al-Tirmidhi collection? A searchable
version would be great! I find great solace in reading
about the wisdom and sayings of the final prophet. Send me
a pm or post a reply.
P.
S. The MSA-USC Hadith Database contains only four
collections of Hadith in English -- Sahih Bukhari, Sahih
Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud and Malik's Muwatta. It's amazing
that only four collections of the Prophet sayings have
become available to English speaking people of the world
by the internet. According to http://members.cox.net/arshad/hadithcol.html
, there are 24
Major Collections of Hadith!
Kind Regards
From the Farside 
Last edited by Farside on Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:49 pm; edited
3 times in total |
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Nadir_ahmed
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted:
Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:00 pm
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| Quote: |
| I accuse Muhammad of being unfit
and unworthy to be a messenger of God. |
who cares... yawn....
| Quote: |
| I’ll show that the Quran is not
from God but a hodgepodge of nonsense and you can
show that it is a miracle. |
no, no... Ali, this is not what my challenge to you , you
can try
to show your alleged claim of hodgepodge nonsense some
other time...
let us commit to specifics here, here is what we are going
to debate, as I posted in my challenge:
The topic will be Quran and Modern Science, by the grace
of God, In the Ahmed - Giron debate, the Quran has been
proved to be authored by a source greater than man and
rendered a true living miracle for all times. You can
download the debate from my website:
http://www.ExamineTheTruth.com
will give Ali Sina an opportunity to
contest the evidence if he disagrees with the
conclusion stated above. So, if Ali accepts, then he can
download the debate, listen to it, and we will start our
debate from their....
So my Challege to you is to
contest the evidence
we will not entertain red herrings... we can debate those
other issues later... like preservation, inerrancy... etc.
What we debate about will be directly related to the topic
of the Ahmed-Giron Debate.
But if you run Ali, then it will not be the first time
,many have done so,the Scientific and Archaeological
evidences of the Quran is IRREFUTABLE .. .. I think you
know that Ali... that probably explains your reluctancy....
| Quote: |
| However, since it seems that
science and Quran is the lesson you have learned
best and this is the only thing you want to talk
about |
What the...??? I never stated that this is "the only
thing I want to talk about" this is a LIE. Rather,
this is what I stated:
| Quote: |
| "I have challenged you first,
soo we start with Quran and Science first, you can
later challenge me to what ever topic you
want." |
AND
| Quote: |
| "Therefore, we debate the
OBJECTIVE evidences first... then we debate the
SUBJECTIVE evidences later..." |
You have already blatanly made a false statement
against me! So much for your chantings:
"I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me
wrong or.... "
"I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me
wrong or.... "
"I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me
wrong or.... "
The debate has not even begun yet and you have already
been proven wrong! This is equivalent to a "first
round knock down.. sending Sina crashing to the
canvas..." lol 
So, please dont lie Ali Sina, this is not going to help
you it will
only make things worse... you dont want to end up like Dr.
Robert Morey do you?
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm
Let me know if you accept my challenge.. I have wasted
enough time here....
thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com |
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bread
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1951
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted:
Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:11 pm
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Dear Ahmad,
I would love to follow your discussion with your opponent.
But my software does not support a sound reading. Do you
have a link to a text debate between yourself and your
opponent?
If yes, could you give it to me?
Thanks,
Bread
_________________
Bread, proudly a former Muslim who saw the light.Islam is
the only personality cult dedicated to a dead man,
MuhamMAD. MuhamMAD is the only paedophile, antisemite,
ethnic cleanser and rapist who is worshipped and praised
for ``moral``behaviour. |
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TruthSpeaker
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 412
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Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:12 pm
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Far Side we need a
chicken running around in a circle going cluck cluck
cluck, for that is what Nadir is doing about the challange
to debate.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Quote:
I accuse Muhammad of being unfit and
unworthy to be a messenger of God. |
who cares... yawn.... |
What a muslim!! Some one just called THE NABI a criminal,
and all nadir can muster is "yawn". That should
be put on the web as fast as can be!! See how the great
muslim is turning yellow and running for cover.
As he turns tail:
| Quote: |
| Let me know if you accept my
challenge.. I have wasted enough time here.... |
and runs for cover!!
Debate, My ass!
_________________
- The only religion, is the religion of truth. Without
truth there can be no reason. |
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bread
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1951
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted:
Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:17 pm
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There are enough
scientific erors in Quran exposed on this Forum already.
All Ali has to do is give those examples.
_________________
Bread, proudly a former Muslim who saw the light.Islam is
the only personality cult dedicated to a dead man,
MuhamMAD. MuhamMAD is the only paedophile, antisemite,
ethnic cleanser and rapist who is worshipped and praised
for ``moral``behaviour. |
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TruthSpeaker
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 412
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Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:30 pm
Post subject: |
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| bread wrote: |
| There are enough scientific erors
in Quran exposed on this Forum already. All Ali
has to do is give those examples. |
But the central tenet of Islam, the "mercy to
mankind", the beloved of allah, the one whom even
allah praises many a times in the Quran is being called a
nasty charachter and the one who claims that Quran is
"supernatural" and from allah can only muster a
yawn?
So according to this Nadir's Quran is not a message for
mankind with the charcter of Muhammad as the key
component, but a soothe sayer compendium of dubious
predictions?
_________________
- The only religion, is the religion of truth. Without
truth there can be no reason. |
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rand
Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1840
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| Posted:
Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:31 pm
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Nadir_ahmed cited:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm
Dear Nadir_ahmed,
Many people in this forum do not believe in Christianity.
Even those that do, do not necessarily agree with Robert
Morey. If Morey is wrong, how does that demonstrate that
Islam is correct?
Best regards,
Rand |
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Ali
Sina
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 2244
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| Posted:
Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:52 pm
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Nadir Ahmad
I am listening to your talk, However since our debate is
in written text I suggest you send me a link to a
transcript of this talk so I can quote you and respond to
you.
If you do not have any transcript it would be nice if you
could write a gist of your talk and post it here. Many
people cannot listen. I had to use my friend’s computer
to listen you. I could not do that with my own.
_________________
Doubt everything, find your own light! |
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HabibHibee
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 60
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| Posted:
Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:40 pm
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Am I mistaken but is
Nadir basically debating with Christian people/group who
hold similar beliefs ?
If so, this is basically 2 bald guys fighting over a comb.
Technically, Nadir makes it difficult to access this
"proof" of Quran and science with recordings
etc. Has to be a transcript otherwise it is more difficult
to review.
All I see is Nadir and his ilk will talk
about providing IRREFUTABLE PROOF the Quran came
from God but I have yet to
see even a HINT of it, anywhere referenced
directly. Frankly, it is all a load of bollocks and I
really can't afford to waste much more of my time on this.
Just paste me a link with this proof. What's to debate ?
Cheers !
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rand
Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1840
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Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:48 pm
Post subject: |
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http://www.examinethetruth.com/
references http://www.it-is-truth.org/Index.shtml
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/It-is-truth/index.htm
has a critique of that site:
| Quote: |
"It is the Truth" is a
visually attractive site that is full of colorful
pictures and illustrations. It is based on the
work of Sheikh Abdul Majeed Zindani and the
Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and
Sunnah, an institution that once enjoyed the
support of Osama bin Laden. The goal of this
webpage is to convince us that the Qur'an contains
scientific facts, many of which were discovered
recently, in order to prove that the Qur'an is of
divine origin. The "science" of the
Qur'an presented here is, in most cases,
constructed from extreme extrapolations of a word,
or phrase, taken from the Qur'an or Hadith.
The authors also site many "authorities"
who believe (although most do not publish these
beliefs, especially in the west) that the Qur'an
is factually correct. Some of these experts are
well known, but this can hardly imply that their
opinions are beyond question. Many of the
better-known scientists claim that the site
"It is the Truth" mis-represents their
opinions, including Dr. Simpson, Professor Palmer,
Dr. Goeringer, and Dr. Hay.
For some others their status as
"experts" seems to be overrated since
their names cannot be found in any major
institution and no academic papers have been
published under their names. In any event, let us
scientifically evaluate if "It is
Truth". |
Best regards,
Rand |
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PeaceOnEarth
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 91
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Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:56 pm
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Nadir Ahmed seems to
be the owner of an irrelevant, marginal, and mostly
ignored website that seeks to establish relevance of Islam
to modern day through debates.
This one-trick pony has a canned approach to his debates:
http://www.webspawner.com/users/deen56/index.html
(He thinks if it comes from some school's science book, it
is "scientific". He even has a link there to
elementary school probability theory.)
I think debating Nadir Ahmed achieves very little - even
when he loses the debate, this man is not likely to change
his zeal for Islam. His past debates have been more about
undermining Christian zealots than proving anything about
Islam. With little following for his website, he is
showing up here in an effort to draw crowd to his site,
with the hope that they will convert to his views.
Expending energy to debate him achieves nothing worthy.
I suggest that we ignore him altogether.
Instead, we should accept a debate from one who has a
position of greater importance in the current day Islam -
Zakir Naik. (Thanks are due to Nadir Ahmed
for bringing Zakir's name to our attention. In due time,
we shall have his works analyzed.)
Let Zakir Naik take up a challenge against
faithfreedom.org. Let people read the views and decide who
won.
_________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -
Russell
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye.
The more light you shine on it, the more it will
contract."
Last edited by PeaceOnEarth on Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:10 am;
edited 1 time in total |
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Mullah
Mo
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 670
Location: In HELL with Mohammed the Pedophile Prophet
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| Posted:
Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:10 am
Post subject: |
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| Mr. Ahmed wrote: |
| The topic will be Quran and Modern
Science |
Obviously this Mr. Ahmed "guy" is ignoring all
of us expect “Ali”. It is "Ali" who he wants
to debate with, as if we’re robots….LOL….
Anyway, since you think we’re all robots, why don’t
you bring up the first point why the Quran is
"scientific"??
I would also like to ask Mr. Sina to write a book about
this debate so that the whole world can see what just
happened. If you can claim that your false ideology is a
pair of wings, then FFI is the spider web that will subdue
you and your claims.
_________________
"I
have built my organization upon fear."
Al Capone (1899-1947), The
American Gangster |
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Nadir_ahmed
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted:
Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:32 am
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I guess seeing Ali
Sina take a knock down in the first round was a little too
much for his fans to handle! lol Perhaps they are doing
Ali a favor by giving him an excuse to bail out of this
debate before Ali takes another fall, and this time down
for the count 
after all, they dont want their "hero" to end up
like Sam "The Sham" Shamoun and Dr. Robert
Morey!
http://www.examinethetruth.com/on_the_run.htm
http://www.examinethetruth.com/apology_rejected.htm
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm
My website is actually doing quite well, here
are all the people who link to me:
http://members.cox.net/arshad
(look under comparative relgion)
http://www.worldofislam.info
http://www.ancient-history.nl/Islam/Links%20and%20Webrings.htm
http://www.1ummah.org/khamsah/links.html
http://www.iiie.net/Main/Links.html
http://www.leedsnewmuslims.org.uk/new_muslims/web_links.asp
http://www.islamic.org.uk/extern.html
http://www.geocities.com/noorullahwebsite/
http://www.geocities.com/sbwus/
http://www.geocities.com/noorullahwebsite/links.html
http://www.thereligioustruth.com/links.htm
http://www.SCIENCEINQURAN.COM
http://www.geocities.com/hamidsaz/
http://www.4islam.com/menuok.shtml
(look under stay sharp folder)
http://www.sharif.org.uk/rebuttals.htm
http://www.geocities.com/anwars_crib/main.html
http://www.waterholes.com/~dennette/1995/islam
http://fosis.org.uk/links/index.htm
http://www.geocities.com/angelasedai2002/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/javedahmad/Javed.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun_change_of_opinion.htm
http://www.alhakekah.com/hedaya.htm
http://www.iraw.org/links.htm
http://nzfarasha.tripod.com/misc/links.htm
http://server2.jamatdawa.org/data2/links.html
http://www.thelastmessage.com/miraclesofislam/index.php?cat=LINKS.HTM
Check out my stats:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/stats/
I apologize for not responding to everyone, but I just
dont have the time...
Also I apologize, but as of right now, I dont have
transcripts, just audio files... But I think Denis Giron
might have them for the debate... I will check with him
Im pleased to see that Ali Sina is listening to the
debate, and I trust it is to engage in the debate, and not
to "test the waters...."
to back down at this stage in the game, would mean, that
Ali heard the Quran and Science debate, realized that he
could not contest or refute the miracle claim... and
bailed out
which will strengthen my position,.. and I have the paper
trail to prove it..
thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com |
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PeaceOnEarth
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 91
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| Posted:
Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:37 am
Post subject: Rules for the debate |
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Nadir is not making
very clear (clarity has been a challenge for anything
Islamic) the intended debate process.
I shall do so now to lend clarity and maintain a semblance
of fairness.
Rules
for the debate
First, there should be an
intended end.
The end should be to establish one of the two mutually
exclusive possibilities:
(a) Quran is a miracle from a source more superior than
man
(b) Quran is not a miracle but a write-up by common blokes
Second, there need to be
ground rules:
Since Nadir does not LIE, I am sure he will stick to the
two conditions he laid out:
(1) Topics will STRICTLY be limited to Quran and Modern
Science;
(2) Topics will STRICTLY be limited to objective
evidences;
This requires that participants:
(a) would not use ANY source outside of Quran to add to
evidence in Quran or distort evidence in Quran;
(b) Stick to objectivity ie., eliminate subjective
explanations.
If either participant fails to proceed with the debate
without violating either of these requirements then we
will assume that the participant has conceded defeat.
Third, Control of the
debate:
Nadir wants to control the debate. A participant is never
allowed control of the debate process, unless it is
rigged. However, we will give some flexibility to our
guest but require that the control would switch between
Nadir and Ali to ensure fairness. One
miracle attempt for Nadir and one fallacy for Ali.
Fourth, a conclusion is
needed
To "prove" that the Quran is a scientific
miracle, Nadir would have to show many evidences. However,
to show that it is human and not by a source above man,
all that Ali needs to do is show one exception (say, in
the form of a fallacy). (This is how any "proof"
goes. If Nadir "proves" that Quran is scientific
then all that Ali needs is one exception to demolish that
claim. In other words, Nadir not only has the burden of
proving the miracles, but also the burden of proving that
no fallacies exist.)
_________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -
Russell
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye.
The more light you shine on it, the more it will
contract." |
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