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haverbob
Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 5
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 Posted:
Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:50 pm
Post subject: Is this debate over?? |
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Still
no response to my jinn and shooting stars challenge issued
to Mr. Nadir. This is no surprise. Muslims never
like to talk about this (never answer me) because they are
embarrassed by the absurdity of it and it's obvious
contradiction to science. I have been all over the net
trying to find a quote of Q. 72: 8/9, Q. 37: 6/10, and Q.
67: 5 from a PRO Muslim site just to make sure that I am
not getting the wrong info from an anti Islam site, but I
can't find it anywhere. I can only find it on anti-Islam
sites. Why?? Because those are the verses that Muslims
want to have everyone forget when this science issue comes
up.
This issue ALWAYS seems to end the debate quickly and as I
said, I NEVER get a respectable answer to this no matter
what Islamic site that I go on and ask this. I am either
ignored or I get a vague answer such as "the issue of
jinns and shooting stars are a mystery".
To date, this issue has never failed me as my handy dandy
spray can of "Mullah Off". Works every time,
instantly.
To Ali. Why do you
bother to debate whether the Qur'an agrees with science or
not on SOME issues?? Why waste your time?? Just display
one area where it disagrees with science and it is no
longer an infallable book and therefore not the direct
word of God as it is claimed to be, which then, in turn
makes Muhammed either delusional, demon possessed (I don't
prefer that choice), or quite simply a liar for claiming
that it IS the direct word of God. Take your pick, doesn't
matter either way. In fact, all the areas where it might
be said that the Qur'an agrees with science become
irrelevent because the argument is not about whether
Muhammed was correct about some claims or not, it is about
whether the Qur'an came directly from God or was a
creation of Muhammed (or possibly Satan, although I don't
prefer that choice). Once it errs, it is not from God.
Mr. Nadir may try to counter that the Qur'an does not need
science's agree on everything to be the word of God.
Well.... YOU, Mr. Nadir, was the one who decided to use
science to prove the validity of the Qur'an, not anyone
else here. You made your bed, so lie in it when science
works against the Qur'an, just as you do when it works for
the Qur'an.
Is this debate actually over that quickly?? Is this all it
takes for Mr. Nadir to back down?? |
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MrHappy
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 68
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| Posted:
Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:09 pm
Post subject: Re: To Mr Nadir and Mr Sina |
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| haverbob wrote: |
| Therefore it would appear that the
Qur'an is not the direct word of God and that
therefore either Muhammed was delusional or he
lied. Case closed. Bailiff, bring in the next
religion. |
Welcome haverbob.
Job done, it was a fair cop. |
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Misnomer
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 56
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| Posted:
Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Is this debate over?? |
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| haverbob wrote: |
| Is this debate actually over that
quickly?? Is this all it takes for Mr. Nadir to
back down?? |
Greetings, haverbob. It appears Mr. Ahmed is stilling
composing his rebuttal. He requested a few more days on
the 14th:
| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
btw, I will have a response ready
in a few days, I got some stuff to take care of
first..
thanks,
Nadir Ahmed |
but he apears to have branched his attack in other
directions as well:
| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
| I HAVE FORWARDED MY CHALLENGE TO
JOHN ESPOSITO AND OTHERS.. |
This is Mr Esposito:
| Center
for the Study of Islam and Democracy wrote: |
John L. Esposito ([email protected])
is the Founding Director of the Center for
Muslim-Christian Understanding: History and
International Affairs at Georgetown University. He
is the Vice-Chair of CSID.
Esposito is University Professor of Religion and
International Affairs and of Islamic Studies at
Georgetown University. |
_________________
Being anti-Islam, Naziism, Communism, and Zionism does not
equate to hating Muslims, Germans, Russians or Jews. |
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Nadir_ahmed
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 12
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haverbob
Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:53 am
Post subject: To Misnomer |
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To Misnomer, you
said:
"Greetings, haverbob. It appears Mr. Ahmed is
stilling composing his rebuttal. He requested a few more
days on the 14th:"
Dear Misnomer. These matters don't take "days"
to rebut. They are actually simple to rebut. The reason
why people take "days" to rebut is because they
have to figure out how they are going to concoct reality.
If it takes them that long, then surely it is not God
talking to them. Personal concoction of reality is what
takes time, not truth. Truth rolls off of your tongue
without a thought (if you are close to it). I have posted
only 3 messages here, but it only took a VERY short time
to compose these. There is no need for me to go back into
the backroom and work on this. If I did, then I would be
"concocting" something. The moment you see
someone doing this, RUN, because they are working in their
minds to "create" the truth, rather than
"seeing" it (and the bottom line motivator is to
create a truth as "they" want to see it).
Generally rediculous. Mr. Nadir, if you want to take a few
days to "work" on your response, then you are
obviously concocting things in order to meet your own
needs. The truth doesn't need a few days, it rolls off of
your tongue naturally. You will never see me asking for a
few days off for this reason. How long does it take to
write the truth?? I'll agree that falsehoods and deception
can take some time and cleverness, but the truth:??? NEVER
takes that long. The truth is immediate. |
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rand
Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1864
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:58 am
Post subject: |
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Nadir Ahmed wrote:
| Quote: |
dude.... listen.... you aint no
scholar in Islam, youre a "POSER"... you
dont even have the prerequisites of being a
scholar.. have you mastered the Arabic language??
Have you mastered any of the disciplines of the
Islamic sciences, fiqh, or jurisprudence? Do you
have a letter of recommendation from an accredited
Islamic University verfing that you are a master
of a particular field?
The TRUE scholars have responded to people like
you, who go around the ignorant masses, passing
themselves off as "Islamic Experts"....
and have simply stated...
" The scholars are who the scholars say are
the scholars...."
and everyone knows who the scholars are, even,
they are in their gatherings, and at times they
refute them....... right? Here are some:
http://islaam.com/Scholars.aspx
I dont see you name there Ali lol  |
Dear Nadir Ahmed,
You are making the claim that the quran is scientific. In
order to test this assertion, you believe that one must be
an islamic scholar. Do you also think that one must be a
scientific scholar as well? Are you a scientific scholar?
If so, what field?
Best regards,
Rand |
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haverbob
Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:23 am
Post subject: Mr. Nadir |
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| Hey now!!! He's come
back from the back concoction room!!! So Mr. Nadir, I
offered you a challenge and I predicted that you would
avoid it because I know why. I've had experience with
this. You, just like every other pro islamic website,
decides to sidestep and/or ignore my challenge. Note to
everybody in the group: look at what's happening!!! Just
like I said, I raise the point about the jinn and shooting
stars and it gets ignored (just like it does on every pro
islamic website). They don't like the scriptures that I
mentioned. Didn't I tell everyone that this always
happens??? And now it's happening yet again. Mr. Nadir,
could you please be the first Muslim that I've ever
encountered that is willing to speak about the issue that
I've raised and answer, conclusively, about the central
point that I was raising?? I guess not, because the issues
that I raise take a little more time to concoct a response
to. There is no need for me to grant a couple of more days
for you because the truth should simply roll off of one's
tongue as comkon sense does (if you were indeed a truthful
or knowing person). There is no need to "statagize"
about the truth. |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 3099
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:29 am
Post subject: |
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| Nadir Ahmed wrote: |
| "And as for your claim,
Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) is a truthful person and
not a liar like you Ali Sina, you bum
" |
I cant beleive that on his link, Nadir put those words in
extra big size bold and italics and quoted them .. 
I can sense the ego he gets from that webpage. Its like
Mr. Beans posting himself letters and then be surprised
when he got them  .
Amazing, amazing. |
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PeaceOnEarth
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 103
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:37 am
Post subject: |
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Nadir Ahmed writes:
| Quote: |
| Simply calling someone a bunch of
insults is not Ad hominem. Rather, Ad hominem is
when you say for example, Because someone is an
idiot, therefore, his argument is wrong. There
is not a single case of Ad hominem in my entire
debate, and I challenge you to show me one example. |
What
the ... That is a complete LIE! Nadir, you are caught RED
HANDED lying.
You say that there is not a single case of Ad hominem in
your debate.
You LIE, Ahmed. 
And you are caught 
It is acceptable to call personal attacks (in a debate,
for example) as Ad hominem.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ad%20hominem
| Quote: |
| Ad hominem attacks on one's
opponent are a tried-and-true strategy for people
who have a case that is weak. The _expression now
also has a looser use in referring to any personal
attack, whether or not it is part of an argument.
Ad hominem has also recently acquired a use as a
noun denoting personal attacks. |
By the way, here is another one from you from your debate:
| Quote: |
| What am I going to do with you…
? What am I going to do, with a person, who
repeats the same argument I already addressed?
Rather, than responding to what I wrote, you
simply restated your ORIGINAL complaint!! Since
this is not the first time you’ve done such a
blunder, I have come to the conclusion that you
are not intellectually fit to debate me. |
Here is an example of an Ad Hominem attack.
Nadir said:
| Quote: |
| We would expect a person living in
the dessert 1400 years ago to say exactly this. |
The above statement by Nadir has very little (how about
nothing) to add to the debate. But I can turn it around to
make an Ad Hominem attack on Nadir as follows:
Nadir, you
poor sap. You need to get your English together first.
Living in a desert will burn your butt where as living in
a dessert would soak you in something sweet. I hope you
know the difference. Even your attempts to be sarcastic
and funny backfire. What a sorry loser you are!
Or (in a more subtle, Nadir style):
Nadir, you are
caught red-handed LYING again! You said that Mohammad
lived in a dessert 1400 years ago. What the ... that is a
complete LIE!! If he really lived in a dessert, he would
have turned out to be a sweet guy...
....
_________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -
Russell
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye.
The more light you shine on it, the more it will
contract."
Last edited by PeaceOnEarth on Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:19 am;
edited 5 times in total |
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Piggy
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1180
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:03 am
Post subject: |
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| Nadir_ahmed wrote: |
My response to Sina has been posted on my site:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/ahmed_sina.htm
thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.DimWitCentral.com |
Nadir, you bum
I won't be going to your web-site, it does not deserve the
hit on your meter.
I will be glad to see the last of you you bum
Take your whole pathetic debate and keep it at your
web-site, your part it is a worthless piece of trash
literature and is best suited to be on your web-site and
hopefully stay there for all to see the goose you have
publicly made of yourself.
It terms of this debate, it is clear (to coin a phrase)
"you have been wiped, like a dirty bum"
Hey you could team up with Menj, all you would need is one
more member and you could be the THREE stooges.
_________________
"Let us take our refuge in the community of those who
seek the truth and endeavor to live in the truth"
-Let the Children Play - Bring Joy to the World- |
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X
Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Posts: 43
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:23 am
Post subject: |
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I am speechless, that
was the worst rebuttal by Nader yet he claims he won???
I do not know why Giron has so much respect for him. The
man at least in print appears not to be coherent.
Nader you lost |
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adnan
Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 3099
Location: Ex-Muslim from Pakistan, now in USA
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:02 am
Post subject: |
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thats what Nadir
needs (what
peaceonEarth said).. big black fonts.. thats his
language
which he understands and pays attention to and thinks is
important, not to mentioning calling the other debater a
bum
.. and having their own website to say this stuff on and
call it ExamineTheTruth.com  |
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Ali
Sina
Joined: 15 Feb 2002
Posts: 2282
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:58 am
Post subject: |
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The following is Mr.
Ahmed's response posted in his site. I copied and pasted
it here because it is such a "gem" that I do not
want anyone miss.
| Quote: |
Response #2 to Ali Sina
www.ExamineTheTruth.com
| Quote: |
| "You obviously feel
that ad hominem is a good substitute to
reason and when you are short of reason
you can freely insult your opponent and
thus win the battle." |
Simply calling someone a bunch of insults is not
Ad hominem. Rather, Ad hominem is when you say for
example, Because someone is an idiot, therefore,
his argument is wrong. There is not a single case
of Ad hominem in my entire debate, and I challenge
you to show me one example. Just one.
Nevertheless, I did call you some names, but I was
simply returning fire from your goons in this post
who have by writing such filthy things about
Islam, especially calling me a "Muslim
Nigger". That didn’t go to well with me.
So, Ali Sina, you need to call your attack dogs
off, and then I will perhaps spare you from
insults you rightfully disserve.
| Quote: |
| "This is why Dr.
Morey did not think you are worth
responding to" |
Oh For God’s sake…… I already responded to
this in my first response!
What am I going to do with you… ? What am I
going to do, with a person, who repeats the same
argument I already addressed? Rather, than
responding to what I wrote, you simply restated
your ORIGINAL complaint!! Since this is not the
first time you’ve done such a blunder, I have
come to the conclusion that you are not
intellectually fit to debate me. From this point,
what I should do is terminate the debate and chalk
this up as another victory, but seeing that Denis
Giron mysteriously entered the debate out of no
where, double teaming me, and has came to rescue
you from destruction, I have decided to continue
and keep this debate going!
| Quote: |
| "However since one of
my objectives is to prove Islamsists are
savages full of arrogance and bravado I am
pleased by your behavior and encourage you
to continue." |
So let’s see here, because I practice the
religion of Islam, I am a "savage",
And Ali Sina is the "cultured" and
"refined" one…. I wonder if he lifts
up his pinky when he sips his tea. I also wonder
what this "cultured" liar, Ali Sina,
thinks of the "goth" crowd with all
their piercings who hang out at the mall every
day………
| Quote: |
| "Scrape together a
few post facto mircles of
reinterpretation, ignore the fact that
most of the Quran contains complete idiocy
and quite a few errors and inconsistencies
(which require tremendous amounts of
doublethink, blissful ignorence and mental
gymnastics to swallow) and claim the
divine (!) authorship of that wicked piece
of 'literatuur' has been 'proved'." |
First of all I placed the link where the anyone
can see what he wrote, second, NONE OF THIS HAS
ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ISSUE OF COINCIDENCE which
I was trying to refute.
| Quote: |
| "This is basically my
argument. The question of chance, guess or
genius becomes ludicrous when the entire
Quran is full of nonsense, errors and
absurdities. I am afraid your
understanding is very limited." |
There is no logic in this statement, and I have
already REFUTED this argument in my debate!!!!
Lets take you for example, you have been proved to
be a liar, and I think you are full of nonsense,
errors, and absurdities. Like for example, as I
stated above, you repeat your original arguments
which I already refuted, rather than responding to
what I wrote! That is pure absurdity. In addition
to that, you are soo silly, that I have cited you
making false statements about me, and misquoting
me. But, inspite of your ignorance, it is still
logically possible that you can make a good guess
or a issues of chance can effect you. But anyways,
I would challenge you or anyone to show one error
in the Quran, absurdity, or nonsense. Perhaps we
can do that debate after this.
| Quote: |
| "What is so
scientific about it? Any idiot knows that
bees build their cells in hills, on trees
and in human dwellings?" |
You have misrepresented my argument, again, the
issue here is how did the author of the Quran know
that it was the female bee which did these
tasks…
By the way, after seeing what has transpired in
this debate, I don’t think it is wise for you to
be calling anyone an idiot.
| Quote: |
| "Why such a sentence
should be a miracle?" |
As I have mentioned, no one statement can be used
to prove a miracle. Rather, it is the collective
analysis of all the statements pertaining to
science which will determine that. I have already
mentioned this more than once.
| Quote: |
| "As I said the word
bee in Arabic is feminine. Muhammad had to
use this word because this is an Arabic
word and there is no other word that can
substitute it. So if any credit is due it
should go to the Arabs who invented a
feminine word for bee." |
Let me translate what Ali wrote from Iranian into
English. He is asserting, that there was a 100%
probability of matching the specific role of the
bee with the correct gender. In other words, it
was impossible to wrongfully match the gender of
the bee with the correct role. This is of course
false. For example, the author of the Quran could
have easily have used a masculine adjective which
would make the bee male. In addition to that, the
author of the Quran could have said, "the
female bee sits at home and never leaves the
nest" which would be a scientific error. We
would expect a person living in the dessert 1400
years ago to say exactly this. Therefore, you have
not refuted my point, my assertion stands
unrefuted:
The probability of matching the gender of a bee
with the correct role is at least ½ .
You also contradict your original statement:
| Quote: |
| "I did not say those
verses are coincidence and good guess. I
said most of what Muhammad said is wrong
and the rest is commonsense, things that
any ignorant man living in his time could
have known. |
Now you are telling me that the statement about
the bees is SCIENTIFICALLY CORRECT. And you
didn’t not state that knowing the female bee
doing these tasks was common sense.
| Quote: |
| "This argument of
yours is as ridiculous as saying someone
calling a hen, hen must have divine
knowledge because hens are female." |
This is a complete misrepresentation of my
argument, I have no idea how this relates back to
the issue of the female bee, and how the author of
the Quran gave the CORRECT ROLE to the female bee.
| Quote: |
| "In my response that
it is not likely for the Arabs to forget
one of their own cities, this gentleman is
demanding that I produce a list of all the
lost cities dating back to BILLIONS of
years." |
First, we have absolutely no evidence for that,
and I have seen no evidence that Iram was a Arab
city, youre not even in the ball park here,
because I have already sited this as a
hypothetical possibility. You are telling us
nothing new. But Even if this is true, you can’t
escape the Math, if you havent figured it out yet,
it is the Math, not the Muslims, which is your
biggest enemy. I will simply restate my question
which I asked you in my last post:
"What is the probability of SELECTIVELY
CHOOSING the name of a city which the world does
not know from a book, only to be discovered 1400
years later through archaeological find... the
number will kill you...
"
| Quote: |
| "Mr. Ahmed said that
the name Iram did not exist in any
pre-Islamic books. I said what books?
Muhammad and his marauding gangs burned
all the pre-Islamic books. They dismissed
them as false or redundant because as
Muhammad said anything pre-Islamic was
Jahili (ignorance) and there was no need
for them. The history reports the burning
of the libraries in virtually all the
countries that Muslims invaded. The most
famous one of then was the huge library of
Alexandria." |
This has already been addressed and you have been
found to be a liar, I hope you to the right thing
and shut down your website as you promised:
www.ExamineTheTruth.com/Challenge_Sina.htm
| Quote: |
| "He has learned only
one argument and that is the bee, Iram,
iron, sea, orbit argument and that is all
he can talk about. That argument is proven
false but he can’t get over it because
that is all he knows." |
Actually, there are many more scientific
statements mentioned in the Quran, but for the
debate I only had time to talk about those 8.
Since you never had the courage to do a public
debate, you would not know.
| Quote: |
I also quote the questions
raised by Orenda one of the members of FFI.
Those are also my questions. She wrote:
"I have a big problem with this ayah
I am hoping you can help me to understand.
To me this ayah is entirely
illogical." |
There is nothing illogical about this verse, as
far as I know, nothing contradicts the principles
of logic
But it is good to see people from the Faith
Freedom International camp are leaping out of the
audience like Denis Giron and Orenda to help pick
Ali Sina off the floor. But I don’t mind to be
triple teamed.
In fact, it was Orenda who is the promoter for
this debate. She approached me several times
challenging me to debate Ali Sina, so I asked her
to set it up, and I would wipe my ass with him. I
finally initiated Sina and here we are…
Unfortunately for Orenda, she got the shock of her
life, as Ali Sina was exposed as a liar and
refuted. Orenda, then come to the rescue of her
fallen hero Ali Sina, and has promised, that she
will do some research and she will find the
evidence for Ali Sina’s concocted statement he
made against Islam, and vindicate him, and we here
at ExamineTheTruth.com wish her luck. Man, I wish
we had such loyal followers. I can’t even get
people to return my phone calls.
| Quote: |
| Why would Allah
purposefully send revelations which are
unclear? |
Test mankind perhaps….
| Quote: |
| and that he knows that
will cause Fitnah and that he knows people
will use the unclear verses for evil. ? |
Mankind was given adequate instructions on how to
approach them, so this will be a test for them.
Now, of course we can ask, why did God create
evil? But that would be another discussion.
| Quote: |
| Why would I purposefully
give unclear directions to my friend when
I know the chance could mean the loss of
her very life? |
False analogy. This is a complete
misrepresentation. The verse clearly states that
clear verses are given and they are the
foundation, therefore, that is what mankind is
suppose to follow. And the unclear verses, leave
them alone.
| Quote: |
| Why send unclear meanings
at all, because Allah says none know the
hidden meaning except Allah. |
Who cares, it has no impact on my life.… when
you die, you can ask God.
| Quote: |
| Therefore, it would be
useless to study the Qur'an front and
back, in fact the ayah implies that
searching for hidden meanings cause fitnah.
Allah has declared that only he knows the
hidden meaning. |
As mentioned above, there are clear verses, and
they are the foundations, study them
| Quote: |
| Yet, at the same time,
Allah expects those people who are
knowledgable to say we believe in it, all
of it. The clear AND unclear. How can they
believe in the unclear parts when they can
not know the meaning?!" |
It all depends on what to believe about them. God
is simply asking to believe that these verses as
well as the clear verses are revealed from God.
There is logical contradiction. If so, please do
share with us. Please do not volunteer any
emotional objections or personal preferences.
| Quote: |
"Mr. Ahmed quoted the
verse 3:7 that says some of the verses of
the Quran are clear and some are not. Can
he tell us why the Quran contradicts
itself in other verses and claims to be:
clear book (5:15)
easy to understand (44:58 , 54:22 , 54:32,
54:40)
explained in detail (6:114),
conveyed clearly (5:16, 10:15)
with "no doubt" in it
(2:1)" |
Response: http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/ma_god_alone.htm
| Quote: |
| "As for a
"barrier between fresh and salt
water" there is no such barrier at
all and the Quran is wrong. The sweet
waters enter the sea and eventually mix
with the sea water. Anyone standing on a
hill can see that when the water enters
the sea (especially when it is muddy) it
pushes the sea water aside and because of
its momentum goes forward. In the mouth of
the delta the waters seem to be separate
but soon they merge. The Quran mentions
that there is a barrier and the Quran is
wrong. So the question of probability and
chance is irrelevant because the Quran is
wrong." |
I have already refuted this in response #1, once
again, Ali was suppose to respond to what I wrote,
but he did not, rather, he just restated, and
reworded his initial objection.
| Quote: |
| "Mr. Ahmed provided a
link to the Islamic site that tries to
explain the miracles of the Quran. In that
link there is a picture of the
Mediterranean Sea meeting the Atlantic
Ocean and the Gibraltar Sill acting as the
barrier between the two seas. Then he
claims that this is what Muhammad is
talking about? Mr. Ahmed, do you have any
proof that Muhammad is talking about this
Gibraltar Sill? It is up to you to present
your evidence. Where is your proof? If
Muhammad had specified the Seas then I
could accept your claim. Otherwise it is
just a vague statement that Muslims could
even use if we discover a planet in
another solar system with a barrier
between two seas." |
No need to name the actual seas to make a
scientific statement, for example, if a person
says, "The brain is used for thinking and
decision making", just because he did not
mention which lobe of the brain, does not mean
that this is a statement which does not agrees
with modern science, rather, this statements fully
agrees with modern science without mentioning the
lobe.
| Quote: |
| "As the verse 25:53
makes it clear, Muhammad is talking about
two seas one with sweet and palatable and
the other with salty and bitter water. The
water in both Atlantic and Mediterranean
are salty. Therefore this verse does not
refer to any two seas but to the waters at
estuary where an arm of the sea extends
inland to meet the river." |
Already refuted in response #1.
| Quote: |
| "In this case as I
said there is no "forbidding
partitions" between the waters and
they eventually mix." |
I have already refuted this in my first response,
you can go back there and read….please provide
for me a definition from the Quran on what a
"forbidding partition" is.
| Quote: |
| "On one side we have
the fresh waters of the river running into
the sea and on the other side we have the
salty water of the sea being pushed away.
In between the two we have a mixture of
the two waters." |
Yes, that "in between" is considered a
barrier, so, are you now admitting that there is a
barrier between salt and fresh water?
| Quote: |
| "The Islamic site
claims this water in between acts as the
barrier. This statement is simply asinine
to say the least. The waters eventually
keep mixing until all the salt water and
sweet water become one. The mixed water
between the two waters is not the barrier
but the reverse. It is the mixture of the
two." |
That specific area of the sea where the mixing is
occurring can be considered a radiating barrier.
There are many different types of barriers.
| Quote: |
| "When I say that
Muhammad must have heard that at estuaries
waters do not mix Mr. Ahmed says "
total baseless assumption, show us proof
of what you are saying if you are
truthful" Dear Mr. Ahmed. I am not
making any absurd claims about
Muhammad." |
Yes, you are indeed making an absurd claim about
Muhammed(P), you are claiming that someone else
knew this scientific knowledge, and instead of
taking the credit himself, he tells the Prophet(P).
And if you recall, I stated that it is a
hypothetical possibility, and I would then ask for
a probability.
And please show us proof for this assertion.
| Quote: |
| "It is you who are
claiming Muhammad had never heard about
this phenomenon that could have been
observed by anyone and was known
universally by all seamen and those who
lives near the deltas." |
The barrier between fresh and salt water, which
you first denied above, it seems now you are
painfully admitting, that yes, there is a barrier.
As far as I know, this barrier is not visible to
the naked eye, if Im wrong, perhaps you can
provide me a picture. But what I am claiming, is
that we have no proof that this barrier was known
to the world at that time. And if you are going to
postulate, that the author of the Quran did not
know that there was a barrier between fresh and
salt water as he clearly stated, and was actually
referring to something else, then this can only be
a coincidence or guess, which would involve
probability.
Its funny, thus far, Ali would have us believe
that mysterious people told the author of the
Quran about the lost city of "Iram", and
a different group of mysterious people told the
author of the Quran about "barriers"
between the seas without taking credit for
themselves. J
| Quote: |
| "It is up to you to
prove to us that he never had heard what
everyone else already knew." |
This argument can be shot down in a variety of
ways, let me first remind you that if you are
going to assert that the author of the Quran
copied this knowledge from someone, than you must
provide the evidence, but all I am saying is that
we have no evidence in history of people knowing
this great scientific discovery, and there were NO
MEANS OF BEING ABLE TO DO SO, because a person
would need sophisticated technology to get this
type of information.
| Quote: |
| "Once again you
affirm that science has confirmed that
there is a barrier between the seas. The
only link you provide is the Islamic site
from where you learned the only argument
you have mastered. Please provide one
reliable non-Islamic site that says there
is "a barrier and a forbidden
partition" between salty water and
sweet water. You sound like that fox who
was caught stealing the grapes and when
brought to the judge pleaded innocence and
produced his tail as his witness. Islamic
sites are not scientific sites. They all
rehash the same nonsense and their claim
that Quran is scientific is no proof to
us." |
God dang you’re stupid. The very people who came
to this post to rescue your sorry ass, are
themselves trying to tell you that there is a
barrier between fresh and salt water here, it is
called the pycnocline! Your problem Ali Sina, is
that you overcome with so much hate and venom for
Islam, that when the challenge of Islam faces you,
you simply froth at the mouth, choke, and
uncontrollably blurt out the first thing that
comes out of that hole in your head, Macbeth
probably put Ali Sina’s condition the best:
A poor player that struts and frets his hour
upon the stage and then is heard no more;
It is a tale told by an idiot,
full of sound and fury,
signifying nothing.
(Macbeth Act V, Scene 5)
now pay attention, here is the stuff you
requested:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Pycnocline+salt+fresh
http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/water.html
(I will refute this stuff later)
In summary, here is Ali Sina’s response to my 8
pieces of evidence, which I have already refuted
above:
Quran and Bees: Ali agrees that Quran is
scientifically correct, but it was a 100% chance
of getting it right.
City of Iram: A mysterious group of people or book
told the author of the Quran.
Barriers between salt and fresh water – Ali Sina
claimed there is no barrier between salt and fresh
water.
Barrier between the seas - sailors told the author
of the Quran.
Iron sent down to earth - my refutation of his
rebuttal went unanswered.
Darkness of the ocean. - my refutation of his
rebuttal went unanswered.
Quran and Orbits- my refutation of his rebuttal
went unanswered.
lowest point on earth - I did not respond yet to
his refutation!
Now, one last point to be mentioned, as for the
numbers which I used for the probability, if
someone were to say that anyone of these 8
scientific pieces of evidence were
"coincidences" or "guesswork",
I used the Subjective Theory of Probability which
humans do everyday. But, to compromise for the
critics, to the unreasonable point, that, I am
willing to go down to 1/100 probability for all of
the scientific evidences, except the bee. For
example, I am willing to say, that AT LEAST, 1 out
of every 100 people who write books mention the
names of cities which is not known to the world at
that time, only to be discovered in archaeological
digs later on… that phenomenon happens to 1 out
of every 100 people in this world. Take for
example the story of Lewis Carroll's Alice in
Wonderland, Lewis Carol has a 1/100 chance that a
place called "Wonderland" will be
discovered in an archaeological dig in the near
future.
Another example, before the earth was discovered
to be round, the people of the past have a 1 out
of 100 chance of making the scientifically correct
statement that:
"The sun and moon have a orbit."
WITHOUT STATING THAT THE SUN ORBITS AROUND THE
EARTH OR ANY OTHER SCIENTIFIC ERROR RELATED TO THE
SUN AND MOON’S ORBIT. Unfortunatly, some critics
try to read into the text scientific errors which
are not stated in the text. Here are some
examples:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_rotation_challenge.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/frank_orbits_of_earth.htm
After looking at the evidences collectively, and
factoring the probabilities as done so in the
Ahmed-Giron Debate, it will be demonstrated that
the Quran is a book which could not have been
authored by a man, rather, a greater power must
have been the author. Thus far, not a single
shread of evidence has been presented to contest
this fact.
| Quote: |
| "It is up to him to
show us at least one book of history,
philosophy, medicine, astrology, or
chemistry dating back to the Jahilia." |
Volume 3, Book 31, Number 137:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
The Prophet said, "We are an illiterate
nation; we neither write, nor know accounts. The
month is like this and this, i.e. sometimes of 29
days and sometimes of thirty days."
Enough said. Someone needs to call Orenda back
from her wild goose chase and let her know the bad
news….
| Quote: |
| "Finally you have not
yet answered the question that I
repeatedly asked you in each and every
communication to you. Do you think if you
prove that the Quran is miraculous but
fail to disprove the charges of
…….." |
Oh, but I believe I have… if you would so kindly
allow me Ali Sina, I would fancy to restate my
position:
"And as for your claim, Prophet Muhammed (PBUH)
is a truthful person and not a liar like you Ali
Sina, you bum
" |
_________________
Doubt everything, find your own light! |
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Piggy
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1180
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:28 am
Post subject: |
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The
"scientific" Quran......
Science-fiction Quran,
would be more like it!
We have a great cast of characters and props
folks..........................
We got jinns, we got planets as projectiles for the jinns,
we got angels in the cave, we got rivers of wine, (might
make a good porn-movie)we got seventy-two virgins in
paradise, double-featured with, the eternal-erection, and
we got molten-brass in hell, we got satan, we got allah,
plus a few other choice extras.
I can see it now, up there in neon-lights.....
"THE CLOT" ....(Creature-Feature)
"The Life of Lyan".....(Suspense and Intrigue)
"Hardventures in
Paradise"....(Sex-Action-Thriller with Alcohol-abuse
Scenes)
"Muddy Pool Swallows the
Sun"......(Super-Natural-Geographic)
"Journey Off The Edge of the
Earth".........(Space-Adventure)
"Paedophilia for Beginners"......(General
EXhibition)
"Day of The Female Prophets"....(Horror)
"Robbin' Hoods".......(War)
_________________
"Let us take our refuge in the community of those who
seek the truth and endeavor to live in the truth"
-Let the Children Play - Bring Joy to the World- |
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Nadir_ahmed
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 12
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| Posted:
Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:30 am
Post subject: |
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|
| Ali , post is ok,but
my embedded links did not show up. |
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