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Denis Giron



Joined: 07 Sep 2002
Posts: 93
Location: New York City, Darul-Kufr

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

X wrote:
where is Nadir?


While I will not put it in as quite harsh a tone as Spinoza did, I do believe that Nadir will not be coming back with serious responses to the posts of substance in this thread. I know that this statement by me also comes off as abusive towards Nadir, but I assure you that is not my intention. As I have said nuermous times before (to the point of it becoming overly repetitive), I have great respect for Nadir. Nonetheless, I have to note that, from experience (cf. his usenet posting history), I know that, when it comes to text-based exchanges, Nadir generally does not put a very large amount of time or effort into considering the finer points of his opponants' arguments. Hence his written arguments are often lacking. While he continues to proclaim on several spots on the net that his debate with me demonstrated indisputable proof that the Qur'an is the word of God (and, recently, that "hundreds" of people are converting as a result of this debate), he has generally ignored the written responses, both here and on usenet, that have shown otherwise. His web site gives no real indication that these objections, which show how seriously lacking his arguments were, even exist! I find that to be somewhat unfortunate.
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l l



Joined: 16 Aug 2002
Posts: 1757

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spinoza wrote:
X wrote:
where is Nadir?


Cowering in a cave, hoping that repitious 'Duas' and mindnumbing Quran recitation will result in Allaha sending down fire, storm and eternal punishment upon all us Kafirs, Hypocrites and Zionists.

Hey, Nadir, if you read this:

Hello guys and gals,
I have some pearls of wisdom to distribute freely. Their value and worthiness is to be dtermined by fellow forummers.

These are free gifts. So taker beware.

Yesterday I wrote an artice which contained facts but was woven into false tales. Meaning that parts of it were accurate but in totality it was not acuurate.

There were a bunch of replies, and because I have some reservoir of good will at FFI due to my longevity and probably to occasinally writing something worth while. So the responses were not harsh, rather benign pointing to inaccuracies in my post. I was well aware of the hyperbole and inaccuracies.

But my post appealed to and was appaling to depending on the ideolgy of the reader. But that type of essay would not enable to reach anyone with contrary outlook at issues and events.

I could have said everything I said, the accurate and inaccurate in a very conversational without irritating anyone.

So to get through to people one must not irritate them. This is "basic Slaesemanship 101"

above is an introduction which I feel necessary before I scatter my pearls of wisdom free of charge.

1- Every one knows FFI mission.

2- If FFI reaches non Muslims and educates them about real Islam which is a rigid, uncompromising, inacable of coexistence on equal footings then FFI has accomplished a fraction of the mission.

2-a- If FFI succedes in pursading some Muslims that visit FFI that Islam should be scrutinized and compared to other ideolgies in an open mind, then FFI would have accomplished its major objectives. These Muslims will become seeds that will be scatteted by wind to grow elswhere.

Here are my suggestion.
Do not debate giving the impression that the object is to win the debate. The objective is to engage Muslims visitors and to carry on a dialogue exposing the Muslims to new way of thinking. As Ali says, sow the seeds of doubt. The guy does not have to leave Islam on the spot.

The dialogue on our part could be terminated politely when we discover that it has become circular spinning but not getting anywhere.

I believe it is counter productive to jump on Muslims coming here with 2x4 weilding forummers to clobber him and prove wrong from the first round. it may take a 100 rounds to get a crack in the shuttered windows of Islam.

We need to retain and bring more Muslims. We need to use basic salesmanship 101."

Do not irritate the prospective client.
Make him feel cofortable.
Make him feel which ever the wind blows he is the winner.

I am through.

best regards.
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Ali Sina



Joined: 15 Feb 2002
Posts: 2262

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As I have said nuermous times before (to the point of it becoming overly repetitive), I have great respect for Nadir.


Is that respect owed due to some virtue in Nadir that we failed to see or is it due to the fact that he has your phone number and knows where you live? Laughing

Denis, we fail to see any reason for greatly respecting Nadir. There have been many Muslims here who never agreed with us yet they deserve our respect because of the way they behaved. Nadir is not one of them.


Dear Nadir,

Now that (at least in your mind) you are the winner of this debate, won't you come back and show us more scientific miracles of the Quran?

You also never responded to the question I asked about the source of the Quran. You made eight propositions as how the Quran came to be so "scientific" and said if none of them is true then we have no choice but to adimit that it is the work of a higher power. I suggest you make room also for Satan. If what you say about the Quran is true and it proves to be scientific, it could be the work of God but also the work of Satan. Now that you are so sure that you won this round, do you care to discuss that?
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Doubt everything, find your own light!
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bread



Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 2002
Location: Eurasia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:12 pm    Post subject: I need your help Mr. Nadir Reply with quote

Quote:
Dear Nadir,

Now that (at least in your mind) you are the winner of this debate, won't you come back and show us more scientific miracles of the Quran?


Your arguments have convinced me and I am about to convert to Islam. But there is a lingering doubt in my mind. See, as Mr. Sina says,
Quote:
If what you say about the Quran is true and it proves to be scientific, it could be the work of God but also the work of Satan.


So you see, I would love to convert to Islam, but I would have to be re-assured that Quran was inspired by Allah and not Satan, and That Muhammad was indeed a prophet of Allah and was not a prophet of Satan.

So can you help me dear brother?
Is there a way to proove Alalh Himself revealed Quran and not Satan?

Pleas help me remove this last doubt so that I may join the Ummah.

Sallam,

Bread
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Bread, proudly a former Muslim who saw the light.Islam is the only personality cult dedicated to a dead man, MuhamMAD. MuhamMAD is the only paedophile, antisemite, ethnic cleanser and rapist who is worshipped and praised for ``moral``behaviour.
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Ali Sina



Joined: 15 Feb 2002
Posts: 2262

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your arguments have convinced me and I am about to convert to Islam


Now he is going to quote just this part of your message in his site and claim more victory. Laughing Laughing
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Denis Giron



Joined: 07 Sep 2002
Posts: 93
Location: New York City, Darul-Kufr

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pax Vobis Dr. Sina

Ali Sina wrote:
Is that respect owed due to some virtue in Nadir that we failed to see or is it due to the fact that he has your phone number and knows where you live? Laughing


Sigh. Actually, you sort of skimmed the reason on both counts. Nadir does in fact have my phone number, and I have talked with him over the phone. It is from what I know of him via email and discussion over the phone that I derive my respect for him. He seems to me like a stand-up guy, even if in this forum he has let the whole sayful-Islaam ("sword of Islam") act get a little out of control in terms of the amount of disdain he exhibits for those who (allegedly) have fallen or, in your case, are falling to the sword.

Also, as you know (or in case you forgot, as it has been mentioned in this forum I believe), MENJ also has my how address, as do a few other Muslims on the net. I'm not worried about violence - these simply aren't those kind of folks.

Nonetheless, yes, I understand that Nadir's behavior on this forum and the nature of his FFI-related pieces on his site might cause other posters here to not hold him in as high a regard as I do. Keep in mind however, that the net can get the best of us, and for most of us we are rather different people in person compared with how we behave online.

Quickly, regarding this Satan bit, while you guys find it humorous, I wouldn't be surprised if it winds up on the net that Dr. Sina and his cohort have "admitted" that the scientific miracles of the Qur'an are too many to conclude that a mere mortal wrote this text, and in a desparate last ditch response they have claimed Satan was the author. Of course I get your satire, but if someone posts something like that on the net, most of the cyber-mujahideen who will read it will simply assume it is true and not bother to check the actual posts for context.
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trubluearthling



Joined: 31 Dec 2003
Posts: 27
Location: New Kafirland

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post

Dear Ali Sina

you wrote:
Quote:

Dear Nadir,

Now that (at least in your mind) you are the winner of this debate, won't you come back and show us more scientific miracles of the Quran?


Please be kind to Mr Nadir Ahmed. The intellectual capacity of this gentleman has been analysed. He scores poorly. It was by some twist of fate that he was born in this era of knowledge and enlightenment. Gullible folks like him deserve to live in the 7th century where they'll get plenty of others to fool and to be fooled by.

I think Nadir is out here with his publicity gimmick to attract visitors to his website. He has an ego the size of a cricket field. With a bruised ego that big it will be a while before you'll hear from him again.

 

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