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PeaceOnEarth
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 101
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 Posted:
Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:01 pm
Post subject: Great Ideas, Chance, and Miracles |
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One of the greatest
mathematicians of 20th century is Srinivasa Ramanujan (SR)
who was born in India. He was completely self taught,
never attended any college or university, and was too poor
to have access to any library. Without any formal
training, and not exposed to any of the modern theorems
and their proofs, SR had come up with reams of
mathematical ideas and proofs that inspired Hardy (one of
the greatest mathematicians of 20th century) to write a
book about SR.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Ramanujan.html
Can we claim that SR's
work is a miracle?
Can we claim that Allah
"spoke" through SR?
Considering that some of
the "miracles" in SR's work are much more
profound and objective than the findings of Quran, would
Islamic scholars call SR's work a miracle better than the
Quran?
_________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are
cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -
Russell
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye.
The more light you shine on it, the more it will
contract."
Last edited by PeaceOnEarth on Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:20 pm;
edited 3 times in total |
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Piggy
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1145
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:14 pm
Post subject: |
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| Denis Giron wrote: |
| His web
site gives no real indication that
these objections, which show how seriously lacking
his arguments were, even exist! I
find that to be somewhat unfortunate. |
I say "deliberately
dishonest" and "deceitful".
_________________
"Let us take our refuge in the community of those who
seek the truth and endeavor to live in the truth"
-Let the Children Play - Bring Joy to the World- |
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Spinoza
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1435
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:15 pm
Post subject: |
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| stopnot wrote: |
Assalamu Alaikum Spinoza,
Several years ago I did some reading/writing on
the subject of chance from the socio-religious
perspective. The issue you and Denis Giron, in my
view, is that you are trying to calculate instead
of evaluate human nature. [snip] |
If you had actually *heard* the deabte between Giron and
Nadir you wouldn't have written this. It is Nadir who
falliciously uses 'math' to prove his point (and uses
faulty math too).
Lemme write up about this. Be back in an hour or two.
Best whishes,
Spin.
_________________
Ceterum Censeo Somnium Rabidum Esse Refutandum. |
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Nadir_ahmed
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:33 pm
Post subject: |
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Ali Sina,
I can see that your website is still up and running, this
is in violation of your agreement:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/Challenge_Sina.htm
again, I would ask you to honor your promise..
btw, I will have a response ready in a few days, I got
some stuff to take care of first..
thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com |
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DoctorNO
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 501
Location: Canada
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:44 pm
Post subject: |
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Funny guy. 
Nadir please deliver your proof first before asking for
any rewards. As we can see so far you have been beaten on
every front. Are you such in a hopeless situation that it
takes you several days to come up with a response?
_________________
Your friendly Filipino
pancit-eating
free thinker.  |
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TruthSpeaker
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 454
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:59 pm
Post subject: |
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Funny or shameless?
Shameless, I think. |
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Spinoza
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1435
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:22 pm
Post subject: |
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Say what? With all due respect, Ali nailed your rethorical
hide to the wall and you already have resorted to ad
hominems and faulty math.
| Quote: |
| btw, I will have a response ready
in a few days, |
You want post on a website that you also wanna close down?
| Quote: |
| I got some stuff to take care of
first.. |
Like putting up a *big* apology for lying about what I
said about your ridiculous chance argument. If you cite me
you need to cite me properly. Unless you want me to
'honestly' cite you for saying 'there is no God'.
_________________
Ceterum Censeo Somnium Rabidum Esse Refutandum. |
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Denis
Giron
Joined: 06 Sep 2002
Posts: 104
Location: New York City, Darul-Kufr
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:25 pm
Post subject: |
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| DoctorNO wrote: |
| Nadir please deliver your proof
first before asking for any rewards. As we can see
so far you have been beaten on every front. Are
you such in a hopeless situation that it takes you
several days to come up with a response? |
Actually, what Nadir has done is he has shifted the
discussion to a new subject. At the link
he gives above, he is no longer discussing the alleged
scientific miracles of the Qur'an, which I agree has been
thoroughly answered thus far; rather he is arguing that
Dr. Sina's statement about Muhammad destroying pre-Islamic
books is a lie, and this subject has not been covered in
great detail in this thread. I thought this distinction
should be made, at least out of fairness towards Nadir.
As for the issue of Muhammad destroying pre-Islamic books,
I myself am not familiar with this claim. I'm not going to
say it is false, but I will admit that I, personally, have
never seen any evidence that it is true. However, can
anyone name any pre-Islamic Arabic books? If there were
any before the advent of Islam, very few have survived (or
maybe none at all, as the only pre-Islamic Arabic writings
I know of are inscriptions and poems, but then I'm not
very well versed on pre-Islamic Arabia). If the
pre-Islamic sources are as paltry as they seem to me, one
has to wonder why that is. Of course the glaring lack of
sources (if there is in fact such a lack of sources, as appears
to be the case in my admittedly limited view) is not proof
in itself that Muhammad or the early Islamic community
destroyed them (another option was that they never existed
in the first place).
If I were in Nadir's shoes, I would not have just come out
an accused Dr. Sina of lying (as such abusive rhetoric has
the potential to stifle further discussion); rather I
would have simply asked Dr. Sina to present evidence
supporting his claim. Dr. Sina made a reference to TaHa
Hussayn, for example, and Nadir simply repeated the charge
of "lying" against Dr. Sina. I myself am not
familiar with Dr. Sina's sources, and I doubt Nadir is
more familiar with his sources than I am. Nadir would have
been better off simply asking for a cited reference from
the relevant work by TaHa Hussayn which Dr. Sina had in
mind, and then continue the discussion from there.
This raises another point, however. Nadir's latest piece
on Dr. Sina alleges to have evidence of Dr. Sina making a
false assertion, and from there Nadir implores Dr. Sina to
keep his promise to shut down the site if proven wrong.
Let us assume, for a moment, that Dr. Sina's assertion
about Muhammad destroying pre-Islamic literary works was
false, or at best that no real evidence is provided to
support it. Does this really fall under the category of
the promise that Dr. Sina has made? Is Dr. Sina's
challenge precisely to find a single false statement, and
that if such is done he will close the entire site? I
really doubt that is the challenge, as we all make false
statements from time to time. I thought the challenge was
to present reasons for a complete overhaul of Dr. Sina's
general depiction, not to demonstrate a single false
assertion. Of course, I could be wrong, but I'd be shocked
if I was. Maybe Dr. Sina can elaborate on his challenge.
Regardless, I am looking forward to Nadir's next
contribution to this discussion, which he says he will
have ready in the next few days. I really don't think we
should rush Nadir, as the veracity of an argument is not
conditional on the amount of time it took to deliver it.
Furthermore, many of us have derided the calibre of
Nadir's argumentation. How can we criticize him for not
thinking out his arguments and then criticize him for
wanting to take a little more time to think about his
follow ups? I think Nadir should take all the time he
needs, as the discussion will benefit from more clearly
thought out arguments from both sides.
I'm also looking forward to what Spinoza comes up with
regarding probabilities. Nadir's science argument rests on
his apeal to mathematics, but his figures are questionable
at best. However, Nadir has also promised to present a
forthcoming defense of his probability argument, and I
look forward to that as well. Hopefully Nadir will also
present his argument to the newsgroup sci.math,
as I have requested, since he claims that no one can
dispute the mathematics of his argument. |
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Spinoza
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1435
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:34 pm
Post subject: |
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Dear Denis,
I am working on the math, there's roughly 3 reasons why I
think it is faulty; perhaps more.
I would also like to note that Ali said 'Mahomet and his
followers' thus not pointing out Mahomet as the single
culprit but as their leader / inspirator / fuehrer. These
words are akin to saying 'Hitler gassed millions of Jews'
or 'Hitler invaded Poland' whilst we are pretty sure he
was not operating the gas chambers himself nor was he
driving a tank or whatnot during 1939; Hitler never
(physically) participated in these acts yet he is the
single most responible person for these actions and thus
we use aforementioned language.
Cheers,
Spin
_________________
Ceterum Censeo Somnium Rabidum Esse Refutandum. |
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Denis
Giron
Joined: 06 Sep 2002
Posts: 104
Location: New York City, Darul-Kufr
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:49 pm
Post subject: |
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Pax
Vobis Spinoza
First of all, there is no rush regarding your contribution
to the discussion about Nadir's appeal to mathematics. By
all means, please do take your time.
As for the issue of Muhammad and his followers destroying
pre-Islamic texts, I understand the language, and agree
whole-heartedly with that sort of employment of the
relelvant terms. I was simply stating that I was not
familiar with how the earliest Muslims treated pre-Islamic
Arabic texts, and Nadir should have simply asked for
evidence rather than writing such a venom-filled response.
I was not, mind you, positively asserting that Dr. Sina's
assertions were false. I'm waiting to see how this one
turns out. |
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Spinoza
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1435
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:06 pm
Post subject: |
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| Denis Giron wrote: |
Pax
Vobis Spinoza
First of all, there is no rush regarding your
contribution to the discussion about Nadir's
appeal to mathematics. By all means, please do
take your time.
As for the issue of Muhammad and his followers
destroying pre-Islamic texts, I understand the
language, and agree whole-heartedly with that sort
of employment of the relelvant terms. I was simply
stating that I was not familiar with how the
earliest Muslims treated pre-Islamic Arabic texts,
and Nadir should have simply asked for evidence
rather than writing such a venom-filled response.
I was not, mind you, positively asserting that Dr.
Sina's assertions were false. I'm waiting to see
how this one turns out. |
Denis, do you read latin? I assume you do.
I have a few arguments of 'chance' that I am now
preparing. One of them (I have 2 or 3 'main' lines of
reasoning, each seperate) will revolve around the
comparison of the text of the Quran to a (roughly)
comparable text (in content) written in Latin.
The text I have chosen for this purpose will be Virgil's
Georgics Book I and although I will use a translation as
well, I think using the original latin will help get my
points across a bit better.
I am rather busy (changing jobs) and I still need to
retrieve a debate response from my old laptop to answer
Abdullahnoor, but I am working on it.
Cheers,
Spin.
_________________
Ceterum Censeo Somnium Rabidum Esse Refutandum. |
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Denis
Giron
Joined: 06 Sep 2002
Posts: 104
Location: New York City, Darul-Kufr
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:14 pm
Post subject: |
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Pax
Tecum Spinoza
I actually only have a loose familiarity with Latin, and
am quite far from fluency. However, if you cite a Latin
text, and give the translation, I would have zero problems
moving through the text with a dictionary handy. Without
the translation, my dictionary and I will chug through it
at a much slower pace. 
Nonetheless, I look forward to what you have, and for the
last time, do not worry about how long it takes you to
deliver. There is no need to offer explanations, as I'm
sure we all have lives outside the internet. |
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DoctorNO
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 501
Location: Canada
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:29 pm
Post subject: |
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| Denis Giron wrote: |
Is Dr. Sina's challenge precisely
to find a single false statement, and that if such
is done he will close the entire site? I really
doubt that is the challenge, as we all make false
statements from time to time. I thought the
challenge was to present reasons for a complete
overhaul of Dr. Sina's general depiction, not to
demonstrate a single false assertion. Of course, I
could be wrong, but I'd be shocked if I was. Maybe
Dr. Sina can elaborate on his challenge.
|
Ali Sina did not specify any amount of refutations, thus
he made a GENERALIZATION of his arguments. Therefore the
challengers has to disprove at least 51% of his
accusations against islam. I dont think Nadir understands
this basic fact about debates, about generalizations.
_________________
Your friendly Filipino
pancit-eating
free thinker. |
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yeezevee
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2686
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:39 pm
Post subject: |
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dear nadir, you are a relic... you take passer by
statements from Q'uran and make Mohammad as the messenger
of Allaha.. You take passer by statement of Ali Sina and
you are asking to shut down the site.. I have not heard
any one who is dumber than you... here take this on ..
Read Mohammad life and refute this..
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=126195&highlight=#126195
yeezevee |
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Spinoza
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1435
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:50 pm
Post subject: |
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| Denis Giron wrote: |
Pax
Tecum Spinoza
I actually only have a loose familiarity with
Latin, and am quite far from fluency. However, if
you cite a Latin text, and give the translation, I
would have zero problems moving through the text
with a dictionary handy. Without the translation,
my dictionary and I will chug through it at a much
slower pace.
Nonetheless, I look forward to what you have, and
for the last time, do not worry about how long it
takes you to deliver. There is no need to offer
explanations, as I'm sure we all have lives
outside the internet. |
Hehe, that is all to true. I am using Virgils book I of
Georgics (which can also be found on the web in both Latin
and English); a quick cursory glance while watching the
telly at the text yields within about 20 minutes 20
potential 'miracles'; such as electricity, the fact that
the sun is a star, the earth is spherical etc. If a 3.000
word poem yields this many 'miracles' this quickly I can
only conclude one thing: the Gods DID send their MUSES as
was the ancients claim.
Hail Zeus!
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