Nadir Ahmed · Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 7

CHALLENGE TO DEBATE

Topic: Quran and Modern Science
http://www.ExamineTheTruth.com

Alhumdulilah, the following anti Islamic personalities have been wiped out, exposed as frauds, and have fallen to the Sword of Islam!:

1. Dr. Robert Morey Evil or Very Mad

( www.faithdefenders.com)
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm

2. Sam "The Sham" Shamoun Evil or Very Mad

( www.answering-islam.org )
http://www.examinethetruth.com/on_the_run.htm
http://www.examinethetruth.com/apology_rejected.htm

3. Denis Giron Evil or Very Mad

( www.freethoughtmecca.org )
(Denis is an ok person not a liar...but he is just confused)

And Now... we have come for you, Ali Sina Twisted Evil

To many people have emailed me and asked me to refute this guy, under normal cirumstances, I only do public debates... so the humilation can be witnessed for all to see as in the case of Sam "The Sham" Shamoun from www.answering-islam.org , but I have gotten word that Ali Sina only does online debates, soo I will make this one exception for him.

The topic will be Quran and Modern Science, by the grace of God, In the Ahmed - Giron debate, the Quran has been proved to be authored by a source greater than man and rendered a true living miracle for all times. You can download the debate from my website:

http://www.ExamineTheTruth.com

All the cheap polemics of the Christians and Atheists have been silenced and refuted in this one debate. Therefore, we will give Ali Sina an opportunity to contest the evidence if he disagrees with the conclusion stated above. So, if Ali accepts, then he can download the debate, listen to it, and we will start our debate from their....

thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com

yeezevee · Joined: 20 May 2002 Posts: 2640

Good to hear from you Nadir... what is there in debates someone wins and some one looses.. Not a big deal. Welcome to FFI and educate the infidellic crowd.. I wonder whether you are from Indian subcontinent or are you from Arabian Peninsula? I saw these debates go different ways depending where the person is coming from..There backgrounds about ISLAM seems to be vastly different...

Please let your friends and well-wishers know about this forum.. so that they will read your fascinating debate...by the way, put a link of FFI to these
http://www.ExamineTheTruth.com www.answering-islam.org and other web sites, so that other experts also can come and debate.. So who is Mohammad any way? what is this Pillar bussiness in Islam?..tell us about Mr. Mohammad and his life ...

Oopps .. I scanned through your colorful site quickly.. It is all about Zakir? How is Naik doing in Mumba?i...Actually I requested that GUY to visit this site some time back.. offcourse he is Big man with lots books and lectures..it is good to hear THE MAN at this site . so let me add the links of Zakir over here...

http://www.ahya.org/realaudio/zakir/ult1.ram
http://www.ahya.org/realaudio/zakir/ult2.ram
http://www.ahya.org/realaudio/zakir/ult3.ram
http://www.ahya.org/realaudio/zakir/ult4.ram
http://www.ahya.org/realaudio/zakir/ult5.ram

Nadir.. Ask that guy to read more that of Q'uran, more detail.. There must be a recipe for High TC and Fuel recipe for Fusion...Also there may be a method to do brain surgery with out knives with Lasers...In fact.. what friends should do is carefully listen to Zakir .. forget about friend Bill Campbell.... Who is a Doctor of NT..OT.. So let us focus on Zakir.. open a new folder and let us export the opinions of the forummers to Mr. Zakir..
Nadirs realize that.. Here are the people who don't follow anything and dissect every thing

with regards
yeezevee

mughal200 · Joined: 16 Feb 2002 Posts: 522 Location: UK

Hello, nadir,

greetings dear brother.

Welcome to the forum, it is very nice to have you with us.

I hope your participation here would be mutually beneficial. Here are some links if you have spare time on your hands.

http://www.muslimsandislamic.faithweb.com/contact.html

http://www.muslimsandislamic.faithweb.com/photo2.html

http://www.muslimsandislamic.faithweb.com/photo3.html

http://www.muslimsandislamic.faithweb.com/photo4.html

http://www.muslimsandislamic.faithweb.com/photo5.html

http://www.muslimsandislamic.faithweb.com/photo6.html

Regards and
_________________
All the best, from Mughal at

http://www.religionandsecularism3.gq.nu/favorite_links.html

PeaceOnEarth · Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 91

Since Nadir Ahmed did not share enough information on the debate or on their views on Quran and Science, I did a little search to get the information for the forum's benefit:

Zakir Naik's backgrounder:
Zakir believes in Hadiths. I am not sure which translation of Quran he goes by for his debates.
http://www.drzakirnaik.com/pages/about/index.php

Here is a book by Zakir Naik on Quran and Science:
http://free.freespeech.org/sultan/qms.pdf
or http://www.dar-al-talaba.net/Specials/Quran_and_Modern_Science.html
Some videos on this topic: http://www.islamicwell.com/islamicscience.htm

Quran and Math: http://www.themodernreligion.com/science/math.html

Science and Islam are twin sisters: Laughing

http://www.themodernreligion.com/verses_sci.htm#index

More works of Zakir Naik:
http://www.irf.net/irf/download/index.htm
www.imc-usa.org/convention/misconceptions_islam.pdf

Debate with Campbell: http://www.ahya.org/invite/ultimate.html
Sam Shamoun: http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Naik/

Peace
_________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Russell
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."

Ali Sina · Joined: 14 Feb 2002 Posts: 2244

Dear Nadir Ahmad,

Thank you for your interest to debate with me. I would be glad to do that. As I wrote in the prologue of this site

I reject Islam a) because of Muhammad’s lack of moral and ethical fortitude and b) because of the absurdities in Quran.

a) Muhammad lived a less than holy life. His lust for sex, his affairs with his maids and slave girls, his pedophilic relationship with Aisha a 9-year-old child at the age of 53, his killing sprees, his massacre and the genocide of the Jews, his slave making and trading, his assassination of his opponents, his raids and lootings of the merchant caravans, his burning of the palm plantations, his destroying the water wells, his cursing and invoking evil on his enemies, his revenge on his captured prisoners of war and his hallucinations about having sex with his wives when he actually did not, disqualify him as a sane person let alone a messenger of God

b) An unbiased study of Quran shows that far from being a “miracle” that book is a hoax. Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. Could possibly the author of this Universe be as ignorant as it appears to be in Quran?

So let us start with Muhammad’s character first. Then we move to Quran and will discuss it to see whether it is a miracle as Muslims say or a hodgepodge of nonsense and absurdities.

Since I am the accuser and you are the defendant, I will bring charges against Muhammad and it is up to me to prove that the charges are true. Then you can respond and prove that they are false.

To start I invite you to refute the charge of misogyny that I have brought against Muhammad. Here is the link:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/Shahzad8.htm

Thank you again for your interest in debating with me.

Kind regards

Ali Sina
_________________
Doubt everything, find your own light!

Nadir_ahmed · Joined: 03 Jan 2004 Posts: 7

no ... no.. ali.... Im not going to let you run.... I have challenged you first, soo we start with Quran and Science first, you can later challenge me to what ever topic you want. Personally, I dont care what you think about Muhammed(P) that is NOT why I am here.. it means nothing to me. I mean, Who cares about what you think of "misogyny" ?

Right now, this Quran and Science debate should be your main focus, as I mentioned it *proves* that this book is a great miracle... and if this is true... then all of your EMOTIONAL arguments gets over ridden. Think about it, your worst nightmares are being confirmed , hundreds of people all over USA are being converted with this debate...

Therefore, we debate the OBJECTIVE evidences first... then we debate the SUBJECTIVE evidences later... (but by that time, it wont even matter because the objective evidences will be enough to convict the Quran as being a miracle, so who gives a hoot about personal feelings..)

So, please dont waste my time... lets get this debate on the road..

thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com

adnan · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:44 pm Post subject:

Brother Nadir,
Alhumdulilah is spelled as Alhumdulillah.
I didnt see any of those people fallen to the Sword of Islam, infact you fell to the Shotgun of Common sense

MarkT · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:49 pm Post subject: quranic scientology

Sorry bub, True Islam converted me long ago, it was his EMOTICONS that did the trick, see:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1282#1282
_________________
"The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not."

Mullah Mo · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:17 pm Post subject:

The sword of Islam?? That's not a sword man. That's a butter knife. Laughing

Bring a butter knife to a gun fight... Wink

Nice try...

Now about Dr. Robert Morey. I don't know much about him but here's what I know....

Ali Sina · Joined: 14 Feb 2002 Posts: 2244

Dear Nadir Ahmad,

I accuse Muhammad of being unfit and unworthy to be a messenger of God. The character of Muhammad is very important to determine his truthfulness. Many people have said good things but it is their deed that is the litmus test of their claim. Suppose I write a wonderful book and give people good advises. Is that enough to prove me as a messenger of God? What if I am an assassin, a thief, a lecher, a liar, etc? Could I insist that people should not judge me by what I do but rather by what I say? Of course not! Remember what Muhammad said about himself:

"And surely thou hast sublime morals" (Q.68:4).
“Indeed in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example to follow" (Q.33:21).
We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures. (Q.21:107).
Verily this is the word of a most honorable Messenger, (Q.81.19)

If those claims are proven to be false then no amount of miracle would make him a prophet. If you can’t disprove the charges that I have made against Muhammad, then he is a liar and the above verses of the Quran are not true.

Even if the Quran is proven to be a “miracle” as you state, this does not prove that Muhammad was a messenger of God. If it is proven that he was an evil character unworthy of the rank of prophethood, then we can say that the Quran is the words of Satan or jnns.

6.112
Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.

As you see Muhammad believed in jinns. He even talked to them. Personally I have never seen a jinn, but Muhammad used to see them often. How do we know one of them did not pose as Gabriel and deceived him? Can you prove that this did not happen? The only way you can do that is to prove that Muhammad lived a saintly life.

I am afraid you cannot escape this one. If you want to make us believe Muhammad was a messenger of God you must show that he was worthy for that task. Proving Quran to be a miracle does not prove Muhammad to be a prophet.

However, since it seems that science and Quran is the lesson you have learned best and this is the only thing you want to talk about, I agree to discuss Quran first. I’ll show that the Quran is not from God but a hodgepodge of nonsense and you can show that it is a miracle. Let us agree however that at the end you have to disprove my charges against Muhammad. If you prove the Quran to be a miracle but fail to prove Muhammad was a prophet then all you have done is that you have proven that that book is the work of Satan.

I’ll write my first accusation against the Quran next.
_________________
Doubt everything, find your own light!

rand · Joined: 29 Jul 2002 Posts: 1840

Dear Nadir Ahmed,

Welcome to the site! I hope we can learn from each other. One of the links you cited refered to
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-2.htm I found the surah like it challenge to be a logical fallacy.

mughal200 · Joined: 16 Feb 2002 Posts: 522 Location: UK

Brother nadir,

If you are a traditional muslim, you have no right to interpret the quran against traditional tafaseer therefore you cannot prove any science in the quran. However, if you are a modern muslim, you have broken away from traditional islam and so you have no authority to speak for islam.

I call such muslims dictionary muslims because they take a word and twist and turn it till it says what they want it to say. Traditional islamic view is that god sent muhammad with a message as well as its explanation and that is what traditional tafaseer are all about ie they are copies of copies. For example, take any latest traditional tafseer and you will see the author stating quotes from earlier tafaseer as to what any particular verse means.

These people very strongly believed that all knowledge is contained in the quran and the hadith and that people's knowledge is decreasing with time, for they are not paying attention to the quran and the hadith as the earlier generations used to. These people also believed that you should not use your intelligence when it comes to religion, you should just follow the dictate eg imaam ghazaali was very much respected for his such views.

All traditional muslims believed in beating up their wives, having slaves and maids, killing infidels and apostates, stoning to death people for sodomy and sexual affairs out side marriage, killing people who steal or drink etc etc etc. bukhaari, muslim, abu dawud and other hadith books are full of terrible stuff.

Muhammad himself was no angel either as pointed out by brother ali in his various articles.

Coming to the quran, it is full of contradictions as regard beliefs and practices and other information as you would find out if you read some articles here.

I hope your joining this forum helps you see islam for what it really is.

Good luck and
_________________
All the best, from Mughal at

http://www.religionandsecularism3.gq.nu/favorite_links.html

mughal200 · Joined: 16 Feb 2002 Posts: 522 Location: UK

Dear nadir,

You stated that you have challenged ali first, that is not true. He has been challenging since he created this site.

He has examined various aspects of islam and found it false and he is challenging anyone to prove his conclusions wrong.
_________________
All the best, from Mughal at

http://www.religionandsecularism3.gq.nu/favorite_links.html

everybee · Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 968

from: http://www.examinethetruth.com/

That's a big load of horse crap. The Quran is one of the most poorly written books I've ever seen. Its full of logical fallacies and contradictions. For one thing it mentions the fairy tale of Adam and Eve. We know humans and other forms of life on earth evolved so that alone shows that the Quran has very little credibility. Noah and the Arc is mentioned, too. We discussed the impossibility of this story here, too. See:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=25
As far as proof of the Quran as being the word of God, we only have Mohammed's testimony which is questionable since he was a robber, rapist, pedophile, terrorist, criminal, charlitan and liar. Therefore, the Quran isn't worth the toilet paper its written on. The faster all of its copies are burned and destroyed, the better.
_________________
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http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/terrorists/fugitives.htm

SherKhan · Joined: 10 Mar 2002 Posts: 356

Dear Nadir Ahmed,
I am impressed and looking forward to enjoying a healthy debate. You must be modern day Saladin to save Islam. However, I am feeling a little uncomfortable with your dual personality. This is what you wrote in your article “Islam or Christianity, Which is the true way to God?”