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Javed Ahmad Ghamidi and Khalid Zaheer vs. Ali Sina

 Part XVI

   

From Dr. Khalid Zaheer: 

February 26, 2007

Dear Mr Ali Sina

Mr Ghamidi neither believes that any non-Muslim is allowed to be killed because of his faith nor is an apostate eligible for that punishment according to the Islamic law. You seem to carry a pre-conceived understanding about Islam in your mind and when you read my messages, you read what is already imprinted in your mind about Islam. No new information seems to be finding a way into it.

The Qur’an has been consistent in saying from the very first day of its revelation that the disbelievers shall be punished if they would refuse to accept the truth from God as delivered to them by the messenger. In many of the Makkan surahs (the chapters that were revealed when the prophet didn’t have any political authority in Makkah) the Qur’an very clearly warned the disbelievers that their fate would be no different from that of their predecessors who denied their respective messengers: like them, the contemporary disbelievers of the present messenger shall be punished by the Almighty. After mentioning the punishment that were meted out to the disbelieving nations of Noah, Hud, Saleh, Lot, and Moses, may God be pleased with all of them, the Qur’an, in one of its earliest revealed surahs, poses this question: “Are your disbelievers any better than their predecessors or do they have immunity in the scriptures (from being punished for their misdeeds)?” (54: 43) It is therefore a very superficial understanding of the prophet Muhammad’s, God’s mercy be on him, mission that he changed his ways at different stages of his career to suit his political ambitions. His message was remarkably consistent all throughout his twenty-three years’ long prophetic mission. No one could have imagined that a lone individual preaching the message of God with such confidence that he was threatening his politically and militarily strong disbelievers of dire consequences if they were to persist with their attitude of denial could ever have seen the days when the promises he was spelling out through the book of God would materialize with such amazing precision that his later detractors would be  forced to charge him with ingenious political conspiracy. Which religious charlatan has ever been able do accomplish such a miracle to come about that would enable him to declare prophetically from the very first day of his mission that the stronghold of his opposition would crumble like house of cards if opposition to him would persist?

You have asked to show where exactly was the miracle found in the Qur’an. My response to it is that the entire text of the Qur’an is a miracle. Let’s ask people to read the Qur’an and form their own opinions. We don’t need to convince or dissuade people from doing so. They will make up their own mind. If they don’t find God speaking most eloquently His message for the humans in it, they are under no obligation to believe in it. However, without objectively going through a text which claims to be from God and forming opinion on the basis of a disgruntled ex-Muslim would not be an objective truth-seeking exercise. My own experience is that an objective reading of it shows amazing results. However, there is one condition for that result to be achieved: a strong yearning to seek the truth. So let’s encourage people to read it directly. If people are sufficiently dissatisfied after reading it, your objective would be achieved.


We had mentioned it at the beginning of this debate that we understand Islam’s message through the Qur’an and sunnah, the two undisputed sources of Islam’s message. The other sources have to be seen in the light of these two. We do not take the responsibility of the details of all the historical incidents that have been reported by sources that are less than fully reliable. Therefore, claiming that the prophet said such and such thing because a certain book mentions that is not a good enough reason to show that he really said so. This is another remarkable feature of the message of Islam. It doesn’t leave the believers to rely on hearsay. The authenticity of the Qur’an is undisputed as indeed is the sunnah (religious practices like formal prayers etc.) The incidents reported about the history of Muslims cannot be completely relied upon. Their record has to be interpreted in the light of Qur’an and sunnah to decide whether such reports are acceptable or not.

The kind of criticism you are making against Islam is not surprising for any keen reader of the Qur’an. Indeed the Qur’an itself mentions several criticisms of the opponents with such clarity and responds to them with such conviction that the reader grows in confidence in the authenticity of its claim to divinity.

You have talked about Hitler and others as having unleashed their terror in the name of God and therefore they too belonged to the same category as the prophet of Islam. I would have loved to read Hitler’s work if he would have claimed to be from God and would have justified his acts on the basis of a convincing book. As I have mentioned earlier, the Qur’an most clearly presents the reasons why some people were declared eligible to be killed during the messenger’s time. Equating the killings during the two periods as the same is a reflection of a very superficial understanding of the two periods.

You have accused that there is inconsistency in facts about Jesus Christ in the Qur’an. What is the basis of your claim? Is it really certain knowledge that Christians never considered Mary as a part of divinity? The Qur’an never claimed that Christians have included Mary as a part of their belief in trinity. However, it claims something else: that Muhammad and his mission have been mentioned in the earlier texts. The present Bible, both the Old and New Testament, bears witness to the fact that despite changes due to translations and attempts at altering the text, the Qur’anic claim can still be clearly seen in it. There is a mention in it that Ishmael, the ancestor of Muhammad, was the son sacrificed by Abraham; that Ishmael’s progeny would proliferate as a consequence of it; that Makkah was the place where Abraham took his son; that there would be a Moses-like prophet with attributes resembling no one but Muhammad; that the one to come would be accompanied by a ten-thousand-strong army (the exact number of people who accompanied him in the conquest of Makkah); that he would come after Jesus and Elijah (John the Baptist); and that he would only come after Jesus has left this world. After all these mentions, Muhammad, Allah’s mercy be on him, emerged as the promised messenger of God with a claim that he has arrived in confirmation of what has been mentioned in the earlier books.

Some one has asked me as to why Mr Javed Ahmed Ghamidi is wasting his time in this debate. My response is that I have already clarified that he is not a part of it any more. Mr Ali however wants his name to be continued to be displayed as a participant.

Khalid Zaheer

(Words: 1200)

 

 

From Ali Sina    

2007/02/27

Dear Dr. Zaheer:    

There is a difference between warning people of divine chastisement and raiding them, killing them, looting their belongings and enslaving their wives and children and raping them.  All monotheistic religions engage in the same scare mongering that if you don’t believe in God, He will be offended and will punish you. This threat is harmless, unless you choose to believe in it. If you decide not to believe, it can’t hurt you.  What Jehovah Witnesses think will happen to you and I after we die does not affect us and should not be of our concern. However, it would be a different story if they decide to raid our homes, slit our throats and enslave our wives and children or bomb us. Then their belief is no longer funny. We must take serious action and stop them.

If I threaten to kill you unless you do what I want and then do good on my threat, am I a prophet? According to your reasoning, I must be because I threatened that I would kill you and that threat was materialized with accuracy. What other proof you need to believe in me? My prophecy came true with precision.  

It is mind-boggling that intelligent people like you, engage in such logical fallacies. What is so miraculous about issuing a threat and then carrying it out? If the victims of Muhammad had perished by natural calamities, without his intervention, after he had forewarned them, then you had a point. That never happened even though at times Muhammad spent thirty consecutive days cursing his enemies. Where is the miracle in threatening people and then cowardly raiding them with no warning?  

You say that all one has to do to see the miracles in the Qur’an, is read it. I did that and what I found was violence, absurdity and hate. You don't deny that but tell us that there is also miracle in that book and so we must not dismiss the book just because it is a violent book. That violence is from God. Where is that miracle? Please show it to us.  Some speculate that Nostradamus was prophetic. Admittedly there are many passages in the book of Nostradamus that can be seen as prophetic. Those who make such claim can back up their claim with concrete evidence. They quote hundreds of his quartets that seem to have materialized. Not everyone agrees with them but it is undeniable that sometimes his prophecies can be seen as accurate. Can you show us any passage in the Qur'an that even remotely predicts something that happened that was not self-fulfilled by Muhammad himself and his followers?

When I say that the Qur’an is full of errors, contradictions and nonsense, I am showing them to you. All I am asking is that you show us one of the miracles of the Qur’an. You have not done so and you are unable to do it. It’s because this perceived miracle that you are talking about is subjective. It is your wishful thinking that makes banal words seem prophetic and miraculous. 

You say that your experience tells you that an objective reading of the Qur’an shows amazing results. If your reading is objective, you should be able to communicate it. That is the difference between objective and subjective. If you can’t express something verbally and logically, then it is not objective, but rather subjective.

You say that one must have strong yearning for the truth in order to see the miracles in the Qur’an. In order to have strong yearning for the truth, you must first doubt. As long as you are a believer you only yearn to validate your belief. You need to be detached to find the truth. It is your strong yearning to believe that makes you see miracles in the Qur'an. A Persian song says I am so much in love with you that whoever I see from afar, I think it is you. Muslims are like that. They are so much enamored with Muhammad and Islam that they see miracles in the most banal things. They see the name of Allah written in clouds, in a tomato, on goats, etc. The Christians on the other hand see the images of Jesus and Mary everywhere. These are all wishful thinking. The miracles of the Qur'an are of this kind. They are wishful thinking of the believers.  

There is a difference between yearning to find the truth and yearning to believe. The first is objective. You empty your mind from all preconceived ideas and prepare yourself to find things that may be contrary to your belief. The other is trying desperately to validate what you already believe.  

You say that only the Qur’an and the sunnah are reliable and what the historians of Islam have written may not be true. I have been quoting from the Qur’an and sunnah all along. Some Muslims are even embarrassed by hadith and dismiss it as hearsay. That is okay. The Qur’an is enough to show Islam is false.

You say the Qur’an responds to its critics with such clarity and conviction that the reader grows in confidence in the authenticity of its claim to divinity. Will you please show us where we can find this clear response? You have been making this claim since day one and I have been asking you to show that clear proof. Where is the proof Dr. Zaheer?  

I compared Muhammad to Hitler and Joseph Kony who also claimed that they were doing God’s work. You wonder weathered Hitler could justify his acts on the basis of a convincing book and reaffirmed that “the Qur’an most clearly presents the reasons why some people were declared eligible to be killed.”

What are those reasons? I asked you this question many times. All you could tell me was that Muhammad was a messenger of God and as such whatever he did was justified and it is not up to us to question him. You even said that if I have a problem with that, I must first come to terms with the fact that Muhammad was a prophet of God and once that is established there should be no question why he did what he did. Your rationale is that Allah knows best and it is not up to us humans to question His wisdom. So even though Muhammad and Hitler acted very much alike, we should not compare the two because Hitler did not have divine license to kill whereas Muhammad did. This rationale defies logic. God’s actions cannot be illogical, unjust and cruel. The very fact that Muhammad acted like Hitler and Kony puts him in their category. A true messenger of God should not act like a criminal sadist. However, I even accepted to agree with this illogical argument and asked you to show us the evidence that Muhammad was indeed a true messenger of God and not a false prophet. I have been asking this in every response I have written to you. You have not given evidence to this claim yet. 

Admit it, the only proof you have that Muhammad was a prophet of God is his own words. This is the same proof all cult leaders and impostors can give you. That is not enough for rational and thinking people.  

You claimed that the truth of Islam is objective. You said that there are undeniable and clear proofs that Islam is a true religion. Where is that proof? Why do you beat around the bushes and don’t give it to us? When I say Muhammad was a pedophile, a rapist, an assassin, a highway robber, a torturer, a liar, a deceiver and a mass murderer, I back up every claim with examples of his life. I challenge anyone to refute my proofs and I have promised to remove my charges, apologize publicly, and even pay to anyone who can prove me wrong. Your claim that the Qur’an is a miracle is nothing but wishful thinking. There is no miracle in that book of nonsense and asininity.

If you are so sure that the Qur’an is a miracle then why you are so afraid of FFI? When you put light and darkness next to each other, light always wins. If the Qur’an is light and FFI is darkness, then why did you block FFI in Pakistan and why you don’t publish our debate in your site? Your argument is stronger and more convincing. Isn't it? You are winning. Aren’t you? So why not let Muslims read it and become strong in their faiths? Often, my respected scholar friend, actions speak louder than words.  

You say the Qur’an gives clear reasons why some people were eligible to be killed, but when asked to give those reasons you did not seem to have any. Doesn’t this mean that you are willing to kill innocent people for no clear reason at all? If you were not a Muslim, would you even entertain the though of killing other humans for no reason? Certainly not! This murderous trait in you is not innate. It is all due to your indoctrination. Sadly, you are not alone. All Muslims who know Islam well, think like you. That is why I said, there is no such thing as moderate Muslim. We have either ignorant Muslims, those who don't know Islam, or terrorist Muslims. Moderate Muslim is oxymoron. It's like "spherical cube." It makes as much sense a  moderate Nazi, gentle torturer, honest thief and truthful liar do.  You are either an ignorant Muslim or a terrorist Muslim but you can't be a moderate Muslim because such a creature does not exist. It is a myth like unicorn. I was an ignorant Muslim. When my knowledge of Islam grew I left it. What about you?   

How can we live together in this world dear Dr. Zaheer, when you are saying in our face that those of us who do not share your views do not deserve to live? Do you see now why I only oppose Islam and do not care about any other religion that I consider equally false? No one else but a Muslim would say things that you said. All other religions are mixed bags of good and bad. Islam is the only religion that has nothing good in it. All other religions are made by humans and humans are fallible. Islam is the only doctrine that is made by Devil to deceive and destroy mankind.  

Will you tell us, if God wanted to kill those who disbelieve in him, why he created them in the first place and if he has to kill them why he does not kill them himself?  Why is he depending on Muslims to do this dirty works?  

In my previous response I talked about Joseph Kony, the Ugandan madman who claims to be the messiah and the Mahdi at once and kidnaps children to convert them into killing machines. He forces these children to kill people including their parents to prove their loyalty to him. If they refuse, he orders other children to kill them. This psychopath says that his followers should place obedience to him above everything else and love him more than they love their own parents. Incidentally these were the very instructions of Muhammad too. Now the question that I would like you to answer is what Allah wants to achieve by asking the Muslims to murder the unbelievers? If the point is to kill them because they don’t deserve to live in this world as you say, he can easily do it himself. So, why he delegates this dirty job to his followers? What kind of believers he wants to rear?  Have you ever thought of it? Do you have an answer for it? Next time, please concentrate on this question.

 

You have accused that there is inconsistency in facts about Jesus Christ in the Qur’an. What is the basis of your claim? Is it really certain knowledge that Christians never considered Mary as a part of divinity?

Yes it is really certain that at no time, no Christian denomination worshiped Mary, the mother of Jesus, as one figure of the trinity. The three persons in trinity are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Mary has never been part of this trio. Muhammad has goofed when made that claim. If you don’t believe me, it is up to you to bring one historic text showing there were a group of Christians who worshiped Mary. This alone should be enough for one who really seeks the truth, to realize that the Qur’an is false.

 

The Qur’an never claimed that Christians have included Mary as a part of their belief in trinity.

I thought you were questioning my claim that the Christians did never include Mary in the trinity. Now you seem to be saying something completely opposite to what you said in your previous sentence. Now you deny that Muhammad ever included Mary in the Trinity. No, problem. Here is the Qur’anic verse that shows Muhammad thought Christians worship Mary:  

Qur’an.5:116
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Now, let us look at this verse closely. Allah is saying that Allah [sic] will ask, "did you [Jesus] order people to worship you and your mom?" And the poor Jesus starts denying and defending himself against this calumny. Doesn’t Allah know already what Jesus said and what he did not say? Why he asks this foolish question from Jesus when he should be the first to deny this calumny and defend him? This verse makes no sense at all? Let us say your son is accused of something that you know for surety that it is not true, for example he is accused of stealing something in England when you know your son has not been in England. Will you ask your son, "did you do it?" That would be foolish. You know he did not do it and you should be the first to come to his defense and witness on his behalf. 

Let me plagiarize the style of the Qur'an and compose a sentence like the verse 5:116.

“Tomorrow Ali Sina will ask Dr. Zaheer: ‘Did you say that you are Japanese?’ Dr. Zaheer will respond, ‘I never said that.’”

If I know you never said that and I am already saying that when asked you will respond in negative, then why would I ask this stupid question from you?  

Is this the book you call miracle? Can anyone write anything stupider than this? This verse is ridiculous from every angle you look at it.

However, it claims something else: that Muhammad and his mission have been mentioned in the earlier texts. The present Bible, both the Old and New Testament, bears witness to the fact that despite changes due to translations and attempts at altering the text, the Qur’anic claim can still be clearly seen in it.

Well, here is your chance to show that to us. You have made many claims about the Qur’an but have not given any proof to back those claims. If you show us one verse in the Bible that points to Muhammad in a clear and unambiguous way, in a way that I can’t use the same verse to prove my divinity, I will forego all the blunders and absurdities in the Qur’an and become a believer. This is the second question that I would like you to answer in the next round.  

There is a mention in it that Ishmael, the ancestor of Muhammad, was the son sacrificed by Abraham; that Ishmael’s progeny would proliferate as a consequence of it; that Makkah was the place where Abraham took his son; that there would be a Moses-like prophet with attributes resembling no one but Muhammad; that the one to come would be accompanied by a ten-thousand-strong army (the exact number of people who accompanied him in the conquest of Makkah); that he would come after Jesus and Elijah (John the Baptist); and that he would only come after Jesus has left this world. After all these mentions, Muhammad, Allah’s mercy be on him, emerged as the promised messenger of God with a claim that he has arrived in confirmation of what has been mentioned in the earlier books.

You are referring to the chapters 16 to 22 of Genesis. Let us see what these chapters say.

In chapter 16 we read that since Sarah, the wife of Abraham could not bear a child, she suggested that her husband sleep with Hagar, her Egyptian maidservant, so she could bear him a child. When Hagar became pregnant, she also became rude to her mistress Sarah. Sarah complained to Abraham who told her to do with Hagar as she pleases. Hagar then fled to the desert and bore her son Ismael near a spring, called Beer Lahai Roi that was between Kadesh and Bered, beside the road to Shur (nothing to do with  Mecca). An angel of God found her and inquired what had happened to her. When Hagar told her story, the angel told her to go back to her mistress and be an obedient maidservant to her and said that she would have numerous descendants. The angel also told Hagar that her son will be a “wild donkey of a man. His hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him. And he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” (Gen 16:12)

Now, this is not flattering at all. Hagar, the mother of the Arabs, is rude and ungrateful. She bites the hand that feeds her. She can’t handle being treated with respect. She needs to be treated like a servant so she can be respectful. Ismael is also referred to as a wild jackass of a man who fights with everyone and is hostile to all his brothers. Considering how Arabs behave, one is amazed to see that sometimes the Bible, this book of fairytales and absurdities, can get is so right. I see nothing in these Biblical verses for you and I to brag about. Is this what you wanted to show me in the Bible? 

In the chapter 17  of Genesis God appears to Abraham when he is already 99 years old and promises that he will give him a son, Isaac, and says: “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.” (Gen.17:7) He also says that through Isaac Abraham will have many descendants and that "The whole land of Canaan,..  I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you".(Gen.17:8) Is he talking about Ismael? No! He is talking about Isaac and his descendants. So if you believe in the god of the Bible then you know why Arabs are losing in Palestine. It is because they are in breach of the everlasting covenant of God. They are fighting against the will of God. The Land of Canaan is promised to the children of Isaac in an everlasting covenant.

Muhammad said that the covenant of God is null and void because the Jews rejected him. Now we have evidence that Muhammad was a liar impostor and the Jews were in their right mind to reject him. God does not break his covenant even if humans do. That would not be godly. The promise that God gave Abraham was not conditional. Allah is whimsical. He lies, deceives and plots. According to the Qur'an he is khairul makereen (the best of deceivers). However, the real God cannot be like that. Makr (deceit) is not a divine quality. This Quranic verse is enough proof that Allah is not God. 

Then Abraham asks that God also bless his other son, Ismael, and God agrees to increase his descendants too. Between you and I, I think that was very shortsighted of God to do so. He knew that the descendants of this wild donkey of a man will have their hands against the hands of everyone else and will be hostile to all mankind. He should not have given in to Abraham in order to please him and he should not have made the descendants of Ismael populous. That was a big blunder. Now we are facing a world crisis because there are too many wild donkeys who kick hard and have even learned to make bombs. Imagine how dangerous it would be if donkeys had horns. Muslims with bombs are more dangerous than donkeys with horns.  

When Isaac was born, Ismael, who was 14 years older, started to abuse him. [His descendants are doing the same to the descendants of Isaac, even though they are bigger. Nothing has changed.] Sarah said to Abraham "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac." (Gen 21:10). [Well, even though the Arbas have 500 times more land than the Jews, and their land has oil, the descendants of Ismael have no eyes to see the children of Isaac and want to take that tiny land away from them and drown them in the sea. Like father, like son.]  So Abraham and Sarah kicked Hagar and Ismael out of their house. 

Abraham was saddened because after all Ismael was his son. God told him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." (Gen.21:12) Did you hear that? Please read it again. However, God added: “I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring."    

The Qur’an says that it was Ismael that Abraham wanted to sacrifice. This is wrong. According to the Bible, God said to Abraham, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering.” (Gen. 22:2)

Now, we know that Isaac was not the only son of Abraham. However, God did not even count the other jackass of a man as the son of Abraham.  He was simply not important to be counted. Abraham loved only Isaac. Yes, God promised that Ismael will have a lot of descendants. He promised the same to rabbits and pigs too. Having a lot of children is not the sign of importance. The poorest and the most ignorant nations of the world are more procreative. Where in the Bible it says that one of the descendants of this wild donkey of a man will become a prophet and will lead mankind to God? 

You have claimed a lot of things, but you are yet to give evidence to those claims. You even went as far as saying that Islam is not faith but fact. And yet, despite repeated requests, you have not shown any fact. Now you say that there is mention of Muhammad in the Bible. Will you show that to us?  Which chapter? Which verse?

Some one has asked me as to why Mr Javed Ahmed Ghamidi is wasting his time in this debate. My response is that I have already clarified that he is not a part of it any more. Mr Ali however wants his name to be continued to be displayed as a participant.

Dear Dr. Zaheer. I think we already knew from day one that you are the one who are writing these articles and not Mr. Ghamidi. You stated several times that you consult with him before writing your responses. Has anything changed? Have you stopped consulting him and if yes, why?  Does Dr. Ghamidi think it is waste of his time to to help you defend Islam in front of thousands of people? In the course of a few years this debate would be read by millions. Does he still think it is not worth his time? There are thousands of people, particularly Muslim youths who read FFI. Doesn’t he think that it is his duty to show them that I am mistaken so their faith become stronger? There are also many non-Muslims who read this site and they too are eager to see the undeniable truth of Islam. You don't want them being misled by me. Do you? 

I know there are Muslims who write to the scholars that I invite to debate telling them to stay away from debating with me. I wonder why? I hope it it is not because they think this would cause embarrassment to Islam. Why not take advantage of this opportunity and show the truth of Islam to the world?

 

You claimed the Qur'an has undeniable evidence and irrefutable proof and that once that is established then everything else becomes irrelevant. Although I do not agree with this logic and believe that even a single error in the book claimed to be verbatim word of God disqualify it as such, I stopped asking you questions about the Qur'an so you could show us that proof and agreed to abide even by this unreasonable premise. However you did not show us any proof that the Qur'an is from God. So I go back to asking questions. Here are the two questions I would like you to focus on the next time. 

Question #5

If God must kill the unbelievers, why he does not do it himself? Why he asks Muslims to soil their hands with blood and become bloodthirsty murderers? What kind of people Allah wants to collect around himself as his followers? Will the paradise be full of assassins, murderers and terrorists? Why Allah has placed so much emphasis on fighting and killing and rewards those who kill for him more than those who don't? 

Question # 6

Will you please show us one example where Muhammad is referred to in the Bible? Muhammad said that the Bible mentions his name (Ahmad). I never saw him mentioned in the Bible.  

If you like shorter responses, you may respond to these two questions in two parts. 

 

I remain cordially yours 

Ali Sina

 

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