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Steve (a Jew)

[email protected]

4 Jun 2002

Hi Ali, 

I wonder if you could estimate what percentage of Muslims think like you. Surely there are many others like you, and surely they're scared to admit their feelings.  I don't have as negative a view of Islam as you - I do believe that there are some benefits to the Muslim religion, but I know that the radicals (Islamists) have distorted these benefits to suit their causes. Unfortunately, these distortions have lead to the deaths of thousands of Jews (over the years - not just in the recent intifada) and consequently others, including Muslims, in what I believe to be justified retaliation. I, like you, hopes there can be peace in the world some day.  I just don't think it can happen with the Islamist bug existing in the world.

Keep up the good work,

Steve

 

Ali Sina Responds:

Dear Steve, 

It is difficult to be accurate in this. There is no way one can find out what is the percentage of ex-Muslims around the world. Very few people dare to announce their disbelief publicly. Even their own relatives could harm them. 

I think there was a survey in UCLA (or it could have been another university) where Iranians were asked about their beliefs. 75% of them declared that they have changed their beliefs. This percentage could be even more inside Iran where Iranians were subject to first hand atrocities by the Islamic regime. Iran of course will be the first country that would relinquish Islam. But I believe this will put into motion a massive exodus from Islam among the Intellectuals of all the countries. 

I tell you with certainty that the end of Islam is near and we will witness it in our own lifetime. 

The reason you disagree with me to blame Islam and think Islam can be still beneficial, is due to the fact that you do not know Islam. I urge the intellectuals to refrain making uneducated statements such as these. You can have no knowledge of Islam unless you read the Quran and I doubt that you have done so. There have been some celebrities that have made approving remarks about Islam and its prophet. These remarks, which are based on sheer ignorance of Islam whether motivated politically or for political correctness are being brandished by Muslims as the proof that Islam is true and then they continue with their atrocities as inspired by the Quran. 

Whether Islam is good or not is not a matter of opinion. Islam is what is in Quran and there is nothing good in that diabolic book. 

Regards

Ali Sina 

 4 Jun 2002

Hi Ali,

Thanks for your response and your interesting statistics.  One thing I find fascinating is that Muslims come from repressive regimes around the world to freedom-loving North America, and then support their repressive regimes here.  Why are there so many proud Arabs here in North America, talking about how great their countries (if only I had a dime for every time I've heard "back in my country" or "back home"!). 

As for my comments about Islam, you are absolutely right, I have not read the Koran.  Why is it that people find it so fascinating?  I can understand why it would be in famous people's best interest to say that it is a "religion of peace" (hell, I think people are blind if they believe that), but I don't understand why it has so many adherents!  I have thought about reading a Koran, but I'd feel guilty about reading it completely without having read the Torah.  Once I get through the Torah, I will sit down and read a Koran.  Then, I may be better versed to discuss issues with you. From my point of view, it seems like the problem with Islam is the same as the problem with Christianity.  You have a self-appointing "prophet",  who's closest adherents are his best friends.  A likely scenario, no? Christianity has thousands of holes in it (I've studied it), but I haven't had the chance to do the same with Islam.  I hope to do it soon! 

Be well,

Steve

 

Ali Sina Responds

I think you should certainly read your Torah. Make sure you don't miss the book of Joshua. Of course the Pentateuch is no better.  You may get sick to your stomach of that much killings. Then when you read the Quran you'll know where Muhammad got his inspiration to create his religion of terror. 

Humanity will come together and will become one family when all of us abandon our antiquated beliefs that are based on fables and myths, are against reason and are downright stupid. 

Regards

Ali Sina 

 

Hi Ali,

With all due respect, I don't think your comment that these books "based on fables and myths" is quite true.  There is plenty of archeological  evidence to show that the characters in the Torah were in fact people that lived in this world in the past. 

As for killing, yes, there was plenty of killing in the Torah, but was the interpretation that today's Jews are supposed to take up arms and kill a group of people that exist today?  What was the message?  Was it to destroy the infidels?  I think in your rush to condemn the Muslim religion, you have lumped all religions together.

See this link  

Ali Sina responds: 

It is amazing how we humans are so aware of other people's follies but so bind to our own. My dear Steve, why don't you read your Torah? Please do so. If instead of letting the apologists of our religions brainwash us, we all read our own "holy" books we all would find out that these are nothing but tales of ancient people with no trace of truth. The stories of the Torah were the stories of the Babylonians, Canaanites, Hittites and Sumerians. The archeological discoveries have demonstrated that these stories are much older than the Torah.  

Please read the Torah and then let us talk. 

Regards

 

Ali, 

You've gotten yourself a deal.  I will read the Torah and then get back to you.  It is acknowledged that the stories of the Torah are of those ancient civilisations.  However, there is still the remains of a Temple in Jerusalem, a burial site of the forefathers in Hebron and Joseph's Tomb in Nablus/Shechem.  Are these not proof enough for you of Jewish existence thousands of years ago? 

Steve

 

Dear Steve, 

Just to prove you that Pentateuch was not written by Moses and this personage could have been a mythological figure quiet unimportant in his own lifetime I would like to invite you to read the last chapter of Numbers. Here it is. 

DEUTERONOMY CHAPTER 34

1     ¶ And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that [is] over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,
2     And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea,
3     And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.
4     And the LORD said unto him, This [is] the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see [it] with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
5     ¶ So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6     And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
7     And Moses [was] an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
8     And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping [and] mourning for Moses were ended.
9     ¶ And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.
10     And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
11     In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
12     And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

 

Now Pentateuch is supposed to be written by Moses. Are these possibly the words of Moses?  

Please read the Torah. But I also invite you to read this book.

Who Wrote the Bible?
by Richard Elliott Friedman

 Take care  

Ali Sina

 

Hi Ali, 

According to Jewish theology, Moses transcribed the word of G-d when he was at Sinai, and thus he was actually writing about future events, not only about his death.  EVERYTHING that happened after Sinai was essentially foretold - why should his death be any different? 

Be well,

Steve 

 

Dear Steve,

I am a rationalist.  Why should I accept this illogical superstition and not those believed by Muslims, Christians, Hindus or others? You are free to believe in whatever you wish. But my standard of truth is reason and common sense.

 

Hi Al

Can I recommend that you read a book called  "Permission to Believe" by  Lawrence Kelemen. It's a very small book and a very easy read. I'd be> interested to hear what you have to say about it.

 Be well,

Steve

 

 If you read the Freidman's book I'll read this.

Ali 

 

Deal.  I'll try to get my hands on it... I assume you mean "Who Wrote the Bible?".  

I don't have time to respond to the previous email in it's entirety. However, I again must state that you speak of evolution as if it's infallible.  Do you not think that you are putting a little too much  "faith" in science and scientific methods? 

Well, as a Jew, another reason why I must believe in G-d is because of my own existence.  There is no explanation for the existence of Jews -  NONE. 

Nasty people throughout the millennia have tried to wipe us out – most recently in the previous century.  My grandparent's families were virtually wiped out in the Holocaust, much like Jewish families were swept away during the Inquisition and other attempts at ethnic cleansing (which the "Palestinian" Arabs claim that Israel is doing right now, which it's not).

People have tried to get rid of us since our existence, which is where the concept of "Amalek" comes in.  We have outlived the Greeks, the Romans, the Turks, the Phoenicians, the Egyptians and hundreds of larger civilizations!

How can you explain that?  It's just too weird for me and I can't imagine that it isn't divine intervention.  Sure, the Holocaust was disgusting and I don't know why G-d would put the Jewish people through it, just like I'm not sure why G-d is putting Jews through homicide bombings and shootings daily.

However, the population of Israel is getting more religious as a result, so if that is G-d's plan, it's working. 

Anyway, I have to get ready for school. 

Be well,

Steve

 

 

 Dear Steve,

You wrote,

“Do you not think that you are putting a little too much "faith" in science and scientific methods?” 

Let us understand to meaning of the terms first.

What is faith? Faith is belief in something without evidence. Science is the opposed of it. As a scientist you must not believe in anything without evidence. You have to question and doubt everything. So your statement that I have too much faith in science shows you have very little knowledge of science. 

Steve:
That's very interesting because I am a biomedical engineer and I have had quite a training in the sciences.  In fact, I'm a physics teacher.  I have two published theses and two other research papers.  I find it odd then that you seem to think I have "very little knowledge of science".  What do you know about science?  Are you more qualified to talk about science that I am? By your comments, it seems like perhaps you are not.  The scientific method begins with a hypothesis, with experiments following and ends with a conclusion of whether the experiments proved the hypothesis or not.  This is easy - the hard part is explaining WHY the experiments prove the hypothesis. Pick up any science journal (especially medical journals, to which I have written papers) and see how ambiguous the results are - there is rarely a definite explanation for why the results turned out the way they did.  It's usually explained by "it could be factor 1, or it could be factor 2, but the best explanation is factor 3".  Do you want me to point out experimental results that were proven wrong after some time?  I'm sure I can come up with thousands of examples.  Again, I believe you have way too much FAITH in science.  Science is probably wrong more than it is right.  It's unfortunate but true.

 

Ali Sina:
You simply cannot believe in science. I heard this expression before by religionists. It seems that religionists cannot think in any other way than the way they are familiar with. Having “belief in science” is an absurdity. The statement itself is a false statement. 

Steve:
Sorry Ali, you're wrong.

 

Ali Sina:
It is like saying drawing a round square. It is disappointing to see that in this day and age there are still people who have no understanding of the of the most elemental concept such as scientific thinking.   

Steve:
Yup...people like you.

Ali Sina:
You proof of the existence of god is also very bizarre. You believe that since the Jews have survived their enemies there must be a god who protects them. This is absurd. There are many nations who survived and many who disappeared. This has nothing to do with god. All other nations that you mentioned like the “Greeks, the Romans, the Turks, the Phoenicians, the Egyptians and hundreds of larger civilizations” are still there. Why you think the survival of the Jews has anything to do with miracle and proves the existence of a god?   

Steve:
Look through history Ali.  Tell me a more persecuted and targetted group than the Jews.  I challenge you on this one because there isn't any.  Yet somehow, the Jews outlasted huge empires - it just so happens that the Torah predicts this and proclaims that G-d will protect us.  There is no reason why we should be here - people have tried to kill us too many times.

 

Ali Sina:
You seem to credit too much your imaginary god for everything including horrendous things such as the holocaust, wondering why he put the Jews under such terrible ordeal. The fact is that god had nothing to do with the holocaust. It was a mad man who killed the Jews. If you think god had anything to do with it, there are three possibilities:

1)      God was unaware of what was going on

2)      God was helpless and could not do anything.

3)      God knew what was going and could help but he decided to do nothing. 

In the first case your god is ignorant

In the second case your god is impotent

And in the third case he is a sadistic god unworthy of any praise.    

Steve:
I would think that we'd be leaning towards the 3rd, but I disagree with your conclusion.  Have you ever talked with a Holocaust survivor?  My grandmother is one and she doesn't scorn G-d - why should you?  Her whole family was wiped out by Hitlers regime, but she still has a love for G-d like you wouldn't believe.  In Jewish theology, everything happens for a reason. Whatever you say about the Holocaust (there is much to say), it brought about the State of Israel, which again is a biblical prediction.  You can choose to ignore the signs and embrace them or you can disregard them.  It's up to you.

You may say the god wanted to teach a lesson to the Jews. Is this the way a loving god would educate his children? In that case your god needs to be locked up in a mental hospital.

Steve:
Who knows why G-d did what he did?  There are explanations, but I don't want to get into it right now because obviously it's a contensious issue.  The Holocaust is unexplainable, but again, the result was a State for the Jewish people and a strong Jewish community...

Apart from that you seem to believe that the Jews have a special place in the heart of god. This is obviously what the Torah seems to convey. May I ask you why you think Jews are special? Do other nations have different gods or is it that God plays favoritism? 

Steve:
Jews are not special.  They were picked to spread the message of one G-d - monotheism.  Heck, if you look at the world right now, I'd say we've done a darn good job.  At least half the world is monotheistic (between Christianity, Islam and Buddhism) and many in India choose to believe  in one G-d, althought their faith has many gods.  Sure, G-d protects us  because we are meant to spread the message of one G-d.  It doesn't matter what  religion you choose, as long as you believe in the Almighty.

Ali Sina:
Please ponder on this. Would a god who plays favoritism be worthy of any praise? Why should billions of humanity give a damn to a god who does not love them the same way as he loves his “chosen people”? What the Jews have done to deserve this station? Don’t you think this is all absurd? Doesn’t this much absurdity bother you at all?   

Steve:
I don't think it's absurd at all.  Again, we were "chosen" to perform a task.  The world was polytheistic/pagan before the Jews came along.  We've made quite a contribution to the world.  We don't think we are holier  than anybody, and if you think that, you know little of the Jewish faith.  There are the seven Noachide laws by which all non-Jews must obey - Jews take upon themselves to abide by 613 laws - we are much harsher on ourselves than anyone else, because G-d gave us these laws.  I think you should study a bit more about Judaism before you make assumptions such as the ones you make about my faith.

Ali Sina:
The funny thing is that Muslims also believe they are chosen by virtue of believing in Allah. Doesn’t this crazy thought make you laugh? Then why should we not laugh at your equally crazy belief? 

Steve:
Why?  Because my ancestors were all there at Sinai to hear G-d.  In Islam, only Mohammed talked to Allah - I can make the claim that G-d talked to me, but would you believe me?  However, if 3,000,000 people, who all happened to be at the same place at the same time (Sinai) told you G-d talked to them, wouldn't that be a bit more of a convincing argument?  Surely you're not accusing 3,000,000 Jews at Sinai of lying, are you?  If there were any disbelievers after that, the whole Jewish faith wouldn't have gotten off the ground...but it did.  What does that tell you?

Ali Sina:
Children like to believe they are the favorite ones most loved by their parents. But when they grow and become adults they give up this self-centeredness and will no more see themselves as the center of universe but realize they are part of a whole and that whole is the family. Humans also grow and go through the stages of childhood, puberty and adulthood. It was natural for primitive people whose intellectual maturity was no more than the children think of themselves as the chosen people and the favorite nations. But we have abandoned these childish beliefs. None of us is superior to others by virtue of our nationality, race or belief. We are all ONE: members of one human family. There is no chosen ones among us. We are all the same. Only when we grasp this truth we will be able to live in peace with each other.

Steve:
Again, you don't seem to understand the Jewish concept of "chosenness" -Muslims might think they are "chosen" and thus are on a higher plane  than anybody (i.e. giving non-Muslims dhimmi status), but that is not the Jewish believe.  We do not consider ourselves better - we are meant to spread a message.  Again, I believe you are speaking of Judaism out of ignorance. Judaism's ultimate goal is to live in peace with eachother - hopefully you will be around to see peace, in the time of our Moshiach.

 

My best wishes

Ali Sina  

Steve:
Well, I hope you learn to limit your assumptions, both of other people and of other Judaism.  You jumped to the conclusion that I don't know about science and you jumped to conclusions about Judaism.  I think you have a natural bias against Judaism because of your hatred of Islam.  Please, don't make assumptions of all religions just because of your prejudice against Islam.  Judaism is not Islam - please don't treat it that way. 

Look forward to hearing your responses,

 

Ali Sina Responds: 
June 12, 2002

Dear Steve, 

You talk about your qualifications, but what you say is scientific heresies. Which part of the science agrees with creation for example? You say that something accepted today by science turns out to be not so tomorrow and then conclude that I have too much “faith” in science. The only thing I have “faith” in is in the scientific process. And as you explained correctly our understanding of science is evolving. This means that there are no dogmas to believe in. We accept that the theories of today can be debunked tomorrow.  This is not the case with religions that preach a set of dogmas that one has to believe without any evidence even though those dogmas go against commonsense. Therefore your claim that I have faith is science is absurd. Faith is acceptance of something without evidence. By your own definition one cannot believe in science without evidence or it won’t be science. 

In our previous communication I quoted the Deuteronomy Chapter 34. This clearly shows that the author was not Moses. But in the most bizarre act of faith you came up with the statement that Moses wrote those verses. Would you accept such absurd statement if it was uttered by a Christian or a Muslim? Certainly not! Do you believe that Muhammad split the moon or Jesus walked on the waters? Of course not! But you have no difficulty accepting the most ridiculous stories of the Bible such as those of creation, Adam and Eve, Noah’s Arc, Jonah surviving in the belly of a wale, etc. 

You say Jews were the most persecuted people in the history. This is because you only know of Jewish history. The human history is written with the blood of innocent people. Despots constantly attacked other nations, killed and looted. Arabs murdered millions of Iranians when they came to force their cult on us. Mongols decimated the Iranians. All peoples were persecuted at times and were persecutors at other times. Jews are not the exception. If God wanted really to protect the Jews, he certainly would not have allowed those persecutions. What about those millions of Jews who did not make it and succumbed to the persecutions? Weren’t they Jews? Were they the bad apples? This god you are describing is the most petulant and ruthless god. What kind of father would let his children go through this much trial and do nothing? 

You wrote, “The Holocaust is unexplainable, but again, the result was a State for the Jewish people and a strong Jewish community...” What a lame excuse! Go and tell that to 6 million Jews cremated in Hitler’s infernos and tell them rejoice for Yahweh made you sacrifice so other Jews can have a country of their own where they freely do to others what others did to them for two thousand years. 

As I said children think of themselves as centers of universe. It is sad that in this day and age a nation such as Jews has not matured enough to abandon this childish belief and realize that the events that take place in the world do not revolve around them. Neither you nor I nor anyone else is special in the sight of God. 

You say the Jews were given a mission to preach monotheism to the rest of the world. Here you missed three points. 

a)      Jews were not monotheists at first. As a matter of fact they believed that each nation has its own god and Yahweh is the god of the Jews. Of course just like children who like to think their father is the most powerful man, Jews used to think that their god is more powerful than other gods. There are many references to other gods in the Bible. I quote just a few of them here:

  1.  God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods
  2. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
  3. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
  4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
  5. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
  6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
  7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
  8. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. 

 

As you see here the Psalmist is speaking of a multitude of gods giving hegemony to Yahweh. But interestingly even Yahweh is alluding yet to another god who is the supreme. Doesn’t this prove that Judaism in its early stages was not monotheistic but a religion just like other religions of the region that believed in a pantheon of gods? Read these verses for more evidence. 

"He assigned to each nation a god but Jacob’s descendents he chose for himself" (Deut. 32:9)

"The Lord alone led his people without the help of a foreign god: (Deut. 32:12)

"Lord who among the gods is like you"? (Ex 15:11)

"The Lord the God of the Hebrews…" (Ex 7:16) 

 I have a list of these verses in my article The Evolution of Monotheism where I show that the credit for monotheism should be given to an unwitting zeal of Paul the evangelist and not to any of the founders of major religions. Here is that article:

 

b)      The next issue is the question whether monotheism is a good thing. First of all there is no evidence that this universe is created by a deity at all. As a matter of fact the contrary can be proven. See this article  But let us leave aside the fallacy of the existence of such creator and let us see whether the belief is such god is good. 

From the history we learn that prior to monotheism, people fought over usual things that people fight for but never they fought over “Truth” of “God”. After the introduction of monotheism people started to fight over this god and millions of lives were lost to promote this vengeful deity. Al though Allah was originally a different god, because of the influence of Judaism on Muhammad, his god acquired the characteristics of Yahweh and became a vengeful, paranoid and jealous god just like his Jewish counterpart. 

More people were killed through religious wars by believers in monotheism trying to right everybody’s faith than for any other cause. The polytheistic religions simply do not have the tradition of fighting to impose the belief in a god or gods. Polytheistic societies were and still are more tolerant than monotheistic ones.  If we want to be honest to the history we have to admit that monotheism has been a curse to humanity. It makes the followers of a single god intolerant of other beliefs. If you want to pride yourself for being part of a nation that introduced monotheism, you should not. There is nothing to be proud of in believing in a jealous, narcissist, paranoid, despot deity such as the one you and other monotheists believe in. 

c)      But apart from all that, you claimed that “Jews are not special.  They were picked to spread the message of one G-d - monotheism.  Heck, if you look at the world right now, I'd say we've done a darn good job.”  Excuse me, Jews never taught monotheism to anyone. The belief in the Jewish deity spread to the rest of the world not by the Jews but by the Christians. The very Christians whose founder you Jews crucified. If the Jews are chosen to indoctrinate the rest of the world with monotheism they have not done so. They have failed miserably to their duties. It is amazing that on one hand you killed Jesus and denounce for 2000 years his follower and now you want to take credit for their work. 

You say that 3,000,000 of your ancestors in Sinai heard God with their own ears. My friend, this is a myth concocted centuries after Moses was dead, by a few Jewish Rabies. In reality god never spoke to anyone. What you read in the Bible are fables. There is no truth in these stories. The Rabies used to gather people in the temples and tell them stories. These are just stories. They are fictions made up by a bunch of priests. I read the Quran and only then I found out that this book is pure nonsense. Please read your Torah and if you are capable to use your rational thinking, you too will find out that Torah also is a book of gibberish fit for the shallow minded primitive people. It certainly cannot convince any rational being let alone one who claims to be a teacher of science in this 21st century.  

So to recapitulate, You Jews are not special. You are just one nation among the family of nations. Neither one of these nations is “chosen”. What makes you better to be chosen? Why you should be given the privilege to spread the belief in monotheism and not the Intuits?  Only when all of us abandon this childish self-centeredness peace will be possible. Without that we will be victims of vainglory and arrogance. This causes misunderstanding and estrangement. 

The “gift” of monotheism that you believe is the contribution of Judaism to the world is an evil omen. The world would be a much more peaceful place to live without this dogma. 

Monotheism is a logical fallacy. The belief in any god as a being is an absurdity. Your belief is a lie. There is no glory in believing in a lie.

 And finally, monotheism was never spread by the Jews. If you were chosen for this mission, you failed your mission. The Christians and the Muslims took over this lie and now they are championing it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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