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mughal200
Joined: 16 Feb 2002
Posts: 522
Location: UK
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 Posted:
Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:28 am
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Dear friends,
Please examine and analyse islam all you like and shread
it to pieces but avoid using wording that shows ill will
towards muslims. In other words let us not be like muslims.
This thread especially is not fit for emotional out
bursts. So please avoid using negative emotional language
and if anyone has please do not hesitate from editing
yourselves. Our objective is not to defeat muslims by
killing them or by insuting them but to help them win
against islam by helping them think logically.
Muslims are not stupid=lacking intelligence but many lack
information and therefore are unable to think rationally.
We exmuslims are proof of what I am saying. So dear
brothers and sisters, be patient and believe me things are
changing for the better.
Serious debates are beginning to take place even on muslim
forums between themselves if you have visited some
recently. Such a thing was unheared of a while back. I
think muslim are beginning to realise that islam is cause
of their problems hence the race for reinterpretation of
islam has started. Of course, it will take time to reach
new equilibrium so I think we should not attract unwanted
attention of muslims by our careless remarks.
Back to the discussion, I see our dear brother nadir, has
not posted anything yet, all the while he seemed so
desparate to talk about science in the quran. It would
have helped him understand our points of view better if he
had read some articles here because we have already
discussed quite a lot of stuff about quran and science. On
the other hand it may be that he is quietly preparing some
article for response. Well good luck to him, it will only
educate us better about the islam and the science.
Once again please fellow members keep your eyes on what we
wish to achieve.
Love and
_________________
All the best, from Mughal at
http://www.religionandsecularism3.gq.nu/favorite_links.html |
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Nadir_ahmed
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 7
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Nadir_ahmed
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:18 pm
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ExamineTheTruth.com
accepts Ali Sina's challenge:
"I invite you to
disprove my accusations of Muhammad and Islam. If you can
show that what I say is unfounded I promise to remove this
site not before confessing that I was wrong and Islam is a
true religion. "
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm
Ali Sina stated the following:
"Muhammad and his
followers destroyed all the books that belonged to the pre
Islamic era of "jahiliyyah". If no other book
prior to Muhammad mentions this city it is because
Muhammad burned those books."
What the..... this is a complete LIE !!!!!!! Now, Ali Sina,
by the grace of God, you have been exposed as a liar just
like Robert Morey:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm
I am challenging you.... to show your evidence for this
statement which you have made, if you can not, then this
will expose you as a liar once and for all.
rather, we have several examples of PRE ISLAMIC POETRY:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/poetry.html
http://www.georgetown.edu/departments/arabic/bonnah.htm
thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com |
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Mullah
Mo
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 670
Location: In HELL with Mohammed the Pedophile Prophet
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:01 pm
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| Nadir wrote: |
| dude.... listen.... you aint no
scholar in Islam, youre a "POSER"... you
dont even have the prerequisites of being a
scholar.. have you mastered the Arabic language?? |
If you want name calling and insults, you don't need Ali.
It is "I" you want. So take your brainwashed
monkey ass out of here before you look like a complete
idiot. Go ahead...
_________________
"I
have built my organization upon fear."
Al Capone (1899-1947), The
American Gangster |
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Misnomer
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 39
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:26 pm
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Nadir, did you change
your name when you became Muslim or have you lost your
accent? You sound like a white guy on those tapes.
ANYWAY, the Moderator should edit that n-word post since
the forummer refuses before it gets out of hand and used
against FFI.
edit: Too late. Nadir already quoted this guy in his
Rebuttal #1. Seems convient. Doesn't it? After reading
Nadir's rebuttal, it is obvious that his modus operandi is
to goad more well-known opponents into some sort of
exchange using insults, etc. then provide
"rebuttal" in the form of emoticons, cliches and
casual conversation-style language in hopes that the
oponent will get frustrated with the non-scholarly debate
and ignore Nadir at which point he can claim victory.
His probability arguement only works as long as he
continues to ignore the mistakes the Koranic author made.
Especially about the sun setting in murky springs.
_________________
Being anti-Islam, Naziism, Communism, and Zionism does not
equate to hating Muslims, Germans, Russians or Jews. |
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DoctorNO
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 486
Location: Canada
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:06 pm
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Peace Nadir,
| Nadir_ahmed wrote: |
Ali Sina stated the following:
"Muhammad
and his followers destroyed all the books that
belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah".
If no other book prior to Muhammad mentions this
city it is because Muhammad burned those books."
What the..... this is a complete LIE !!!!!!! Now,
Ali Sina, by the grace of God, you have been
exposed as a liar just like Robert Morey:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm
I am challenging you.... to show your evidence for
this statement which you have made, if you can
not, then this will expose you as a liar once and
for all.
|
Ali Sina's statement was a NEGATIVE claim. Logically the
proof of burden lies on the shoulder of the positive
claimant. If you are claiming the positive existence of
pre-islamic books then it is up to you to prove it.
----------
Also take note that Ali Sina said "accusations".
This is a generalization which implies that you have to
disprove at least 51% of his accusations.
those were mere comments, not examples.
thanks. 
_________________
Islam - the religion invented by Mohammed. |
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mughal200
Joined: 16 Feb 2002
Posts: 522
Location: UK
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:57 pm
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Nadir,
Greetings dear brother.
Your response to brother ali sina,
Response #1 to Ali Sina
www.ExamineTheTruth.com
dude.... listen.... you aint no scholar in Islam, youre a
"POSER"... you dont even have the prerequisites
of being a scholar.. have you mastered the Arabic
language?? Have you mastered any of the disciplines of the
Islamic sciences, fiqh, or jurisprudence? Do you have a
letter of recommendation from an accredited Islamic
University verfing that you are a master of a particular
field?
The TRUE scholars have responded to people like you, who
go around the ignorant masses, passing themselves off as
"Islamic Experts".... and have simply stated...
" The scholars are who the scholars say are the
scholars...."
and everyone knows who the scholars are, even, they are in
their gatherings, and at times they refute them.......
right? Here are some:
http://islaam.com/Scholars.aspx
I dont see you name there Ali lol
Rather, Ali Sina, what you are, is a garbage man.
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk. You recycle
garbage.The material on your website is simply a "cut
and paste" from other websites, you simply recycle
and polish the material and display it on your website.
Thats all. Recycling garbage does not make a person a
scholar. The truth is, people like you are a dime a
dozen...
But that doesn't mean that your website is useless. In
today's world there is a great want for people like Ali
Sina.. there are many bigots and hate mongers who have
extreme hatred and loath for Islam, they would like
nothing more to rekindle the fire of the crusades and they
need some kind of outlet. Ali Sina gives provides exactly
that.. and caters to that crowd... here is an example of
an Ali Sina fan who just wrote this post on his website
forums:
"I try to interprete Islam in a language that nigger
Muslims understand.
As far as I am concerned all Muslims are lowest of the
breed."
in addition to that, I invite you to visit yahoo Islam
chat room, or paltalk social issues room, there you will
find many Ali Sina's clientele... "high" off Ali
Sina's website, frothing at the mouth, hurling all kind of
slurs at Muslims from nigger to camel fu@#&r.,
"throw all the Muslims out of America!! posting www.faithfreedom.org
everywhere....
and it is a big market out there... But that does not mean
that Ali has the same intent has his audience, he stated
that his intentions are different.. So, you see, its all
bout supply and demand. Thats all.
Now I will respond to your "refutation" of the
evidences for the Quran and Science. As God is my witness,
it had to have been one of the worst refutations I have
ever read...I mean.. . Ali.... this is realllllly bad..
I would like to point out that it is a prerequisite to
first listen to the Ahmed-Giron debate on Quran and
Science which is located on my website: www.ExamineTheTruth.com
to put Ali Sina's refutation in a nutshell, he basically
said, that all the scientific statements in the Quran were
ALL coincidences and good guesses. And he gave some
examples of hypothetical possible scenarios of how these
alleged coincidences may have occured.
these arguments were clearly refuted in the debate,infact,
I was the one who bought them up, and I even went soo far
as to provide the human possibilities for these statements
which matched up with modern science!! here they are
again:
IF Statement = Scientific fact THEN
(it can be one or more of the following 8 possibilities)
A. Perhaps the author of the statement was a genious
B. A very good guess,luck
C. Perhaps the author of the statement was a great
scientist
D. Coincidence (ex: a poetic statement which just happened
to match
up with science),luck, and the author had no intention of
talking
about science; it was an accident. No intention.
E. Common sense (ex: rain causes grass to grow)
F. The scienctific fact is observable.
G. The information already pre-existed in history
(this can only be entertained if we have historical
errors)
H. A source greater than man was involved
I also refuted the possibilities of all these scientific
arguments being coincidences or lucky guesses:
1. Bee = 1/2
2. Iram = 1/500,000
3. Barrier between the seas = 1/500,000
4. Barrier between salt and fresh waters= 1/500,000
5. complete darkness in the deep ocean = 1/500,000
6. Lowest point on earth = 1/500,000
7. Iron = 1/500,000
8. Orbit = 1/500,000
Therefore, the chances of all 8 scientific statements
being
a coincidence is the following:
1/2 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 *
1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 = 1/3.5 *10^36
What if we say that the following 8 scientific statements
in the Quran were all the product of a good guess, then
the following would be the probability:
1. Bee = 1/2
2. Iram = 1/10,000
3. Barrier between the seas = 1/10,000
4. Barrier between salt and fresh waters= 1/10,000
5. complete darkness in the deep ocean = 1/10,000
6. Lowest point on earth = 1/10,000
7. Iron = 1/10,000
8. Orbit = 1/10,000
1/2 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000
* 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 = 1/2.0 *10^28
ALI SINA DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO REFUTE MY ARGUMENT!!!!!
Smart people who have listened to the debate realize that
you CAN NOT pass off all of the scientific statements as
guesswork and coincidence, look what one of Ali Sina's
fans who listened to the debate said:
Spinoza:
"I listened to Denis Giron's debate and I thought the
argument of 'chance' was rather ridiculous"
here is a smart kid, he knows the pit falls that lie
ahead... I only wish Ali Sina had the same common sense
so I will simply be repeating my arguments... perhaps, the
next time around Ali will attempt to refute them. This is
going to be a cakewalk.....
Quran and Bees....
"You have chosen a few verses from the Quran and
reinterpreted them to correlate with the modern
science"
the same charge was made by Denis in the debate as a
"hail marry" attempt because he was losing the
debate, so I came back and challenged him to show me
where? He could not. Perhaps you can?
"Aristotle observed that the brood of drones appear
even when thereis no ruler bee in the hive. This is an
accurate observation. As we know today, unfertilized
female workers can lay eggs in the absence of a queen, but
the eggs develop into drones. Aristotle gave a fairly
accurate description of the bees with only few mistakes
like confusing the genger of the Queen and calling it the
King."
So, where did you learn this fact about Aristotle? ME!
thats where lol,I have already refuted this argument in my
debate! Rather than addressing my refutation, you can back
and simply restated the objection!!!!!!! omg
Therefore, LET ME REPEAT MYSELF!!! The point I made in the
debate, which you were suppose to respond to, was that
were the following:
1. Showing a scientific statement already pre-existed in
history means nothing. As I have already explained, how
did the author of the quran know know to select this
explanations versus the other wrong explanations which pre
existed in history... the books of antiquity are riddled
with scientific errors! How did the author of the Quran
know to select this piece of
truth, in an ocean of falsehood and myths?
For example, if a person were to copy from his neighbor on
test day because he did not study for the test, he runs a
risk of still flunking! Because if his neighbor did not
study, then he will be coping the wrong answers to his
test paper,along with some correct answers. So, likewise
doing a copy job in the 6th century,is a even more
dangerous job, because the books available are riddled
with myths and legends!
Therefore, if someone were to say that the Quran was a
copy job of Aristotle, then he must also show where the
author the Quran also copied the scientific ERRORS in
Aristotle's book, here is an example of some of the
scientific errors pertaining to bees in Aristotles
book:
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artaug98/mdcard.html
(where honey comb is made from)
Aristotles errors on bees:
1. Aristotle thought that the queen bee was actually a
MALE.
2. bees do not give birth to young but fetch their young
from flowers
(bees are actually grown from eggs)
3. bees come from olives?
4. honeycomb is made from flowers (it is made of wax)
5. wax comes from the gum of trees (it comes from wax
glands of the bees)
6. female bees do not sting, because nature does not
provide females with weapons", i.e., sting
Unless you can show one of these scientific errors in the
Quran pertaining
to bees in the Quran, then you can not accuse the author
of the Quran of coping.
Another logical error is that people attempt to show
alleged scientific errors which are
not in Aristotles books to accuse the author of the Quran
of coping! Nevertheless,their are no scientific errors in
the quran
Since we see that NONE of these scientific errors
pertaining to bees from Aristotle are in the Quran,
therefore the author of the Quran DID NOT palgerize from
Aristotle.
"All Arabs used the same word even before
Muhammad"
yes, but not but the point which I was making was that the
CORRECT roles were given to the female bee a word which
was used by all Arabs.....
In conclusion, the books available to Prophet Muhammed(P)
said that the worker bee was male, some books said female,
and some said both. Which one is correct?? Which books
should I choose ?
Therefore, as you can see, Ali Sina refuted NOTHING!! All
I have done here is repeat my ORIGINAL arguement!! Ali
didnt even attempt to try and refute my argument
Therefore, here are the 2 take home points of the issues
of bees which has gone UNCHALLENGED!!
1. The Quran is scientifically acurate as far as the role
of the female bees.
2. No evidence exists of plagerism.
3. If we were to say the author of the Quran guessed, or
it was a coincidence, than the probability is 1/2
(actually 1/3 but I want to go easy on your guys) .....
#3 is the most important arguement here... because if you
say this was a guess, I have 7 more "guesses"
.... you know what that means?
1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2
yes, you got it FACTORING! So, you be very careful and use
this explanation sparingly
You dont want the probability of all these statements to
be guesses to be soo high, that it is impossible
to say that these scientific statements were all guess and
coincidences is ultimate disaster for the atheist, because
of the probability involved. And you better believe im
going to pull out my calculator and do the math in the
end....
these were there the arguements which Ali Sina was suppose
to refute but he did not
City of Iram
"The destruction of a city is a big event. It is
obvious that people will talk about it and tell its tales
to their descendants."
if that logic was true... then that means we have a record
of EVERY destroyed city from the time of Adam, which would
go back BILLIONS of years ago, I would like to ask Ali
Sina to please provide for us that list
"Who said no books prior to Muhammad mentioned Iram?"
All researchers agree on this. National Geographics did an
article on Iram, and the only reference they came up with
which mentioned this city was the Quran.
One of the critics of the Qur'an (Wellhausen) stated that
Iram was a fictional place. If Ali knows of a book before
the Quran which states Iram as a city, please do share
Please also read what I wrote about this
"borrowing" allegation that I just wrote above.
But, I really dont have a problem with this hypothetical
possiblity, because when i calculate the probability of
SELECTIVELY CHOOSING the name of a city which the world
does not know from a book, only to be discovered 1400
years later through archaelogical find... the number will
kill you...
and to add insult to injury, I will multiply that
number with 1/2 (from the bee)
math is a bi@#@ isn't it?
"Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books
that belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah".
If no other book prior to Muhammad mentions this city it
is because Muhammad burned those books."
What the..... this is a complete LIE !!!!!!! Now, Ali Sina,
by the grace of God, you have been exposed as a liar just
like Robert Morey:
(http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm)
I am challenging you.... to show your evidence for this
statement which you have made, if you can not, then this
will expose you as a liar once and for all.
rather, what we have several examples of PRE ISLAMIC
POETRY:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/poetry.html
http://www.georgetown.edu/departments/arabic/bonnah.htm
Now, Ali Sina, you have stated:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm
"I invite you to disprove my accusations of Muhammad
and Islam. If you can show that what I say is unfounded I
promise to remove this site not before confessing that I
was wrong and Islam is a true religion. "
Therefore, if you can not provide evidence that the
Prophet Muhammed did what you accused him of, then I would
like for you to fulfill your promise.... and take this
website down
"The tales of Iram with its lofty pillars must have
been in the lore of the people of Arabia"
this is your self self-delusion. Scholars have researched
this, and have come up with nothing. THERE IS NO BOOK
OTHER THAN THE QURAN WHICH MENTIONS IRAM.
"and the way Muhammad casually mentions it with no
further explanation is clear that his audience already
knew what he is taking about. "
petitio principii. Your premises are as false as your
conclusion. The Quran does not state that you are suppose
to know every thing mentioned in this book. This is a
false assertion. Rather, the Quran states the exact
OPPOSITE of what you are saying, the Quran clearly states
that there are things about this book which will not be
known to you:
3:7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the
Book (this Qur'ān). In it are Verses that are entirely
clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are
the Verses of Al-Ahkām (commandments, etc.), Al-Farā'id
(obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the
punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not
entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a
deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not
entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and
trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but
none knows its hidden meanings
save Allāh. And those who are firmly grounded in
knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it
(clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And
none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir
At-Tabarī).
therefore, my points stand unrefuted:
1. The Quran mentions a city named Iram, and this city was
later discovered 1400 years later during an archaeological
find.
2. I have no problem accepting that the false assertion
that the author of the Quran plagerized from another
source, even though, you have not provided a single shread
of evidence.. the reason why is because you are not
excempt from the math! So here is my probabilty on any
person SELECTIVELY CHOOSING a city which the world does
not know of from a book, and that city being discovered
later in an archaelogical dig..
how does.... 1/10,000 sound? Using the Subjective theory
of probability. But if you would like me to go lower no
problem, I will accept any reasonable assessment.
So, here is what we have:
1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/20,000
the same holds true for coincidence, and guess.
Quran and barriers.
"anyone going to the sea watching sweet waters
carrying sediments flowing into the salty waters of the
ocean can see they do not mix immediately"
it is a known fact that there is
NO VISIBLE BARRIER between salt and fresh water..
but I dont have a problem with your hypothetical scenario,
therefore, what you are saying, is that the author of the
Quran meant to describle sediments
flowing into the ocean, BUT BY COINCIDENCE, he left out of
the Quran that he was observing sediment, and by
COINCIDENCE, this verse matches up with a scientific fact
which researchers have only come to know today, that there
is a barrier between salt and fresh water. What do you
think the probability of that is??
You see, critics are literally hanging themselves with a
rope when they come up with these silly little stories...
it is working against them! Because they forget that every
time they raise an issue of coincidence, MATHMETICS IS
AUTOMATICALLY INVOLVED! The more stories they can come up
with, the more they dig themselves in a hole...
"Sailors must have noticed more buoyancy of their
boats in the salty waters of the sea than when they were
navigating in rivers and lakes of sweet water"
another hypothetical COINCIDENCE that it matches up with
science?
proability.... probability...... probability....
"Waters that have different salinity, density and
temperature do not mix readily, however they do
eventually. But Muhammad states that there is a barrier
between them and a partition that is forbidden to be
passed. This
is of course not true."
we are not talking about waters that have different
salinity,rather we are talking about a barrier between
fresh and salt waters..this barrier has been illustrated
here:
http://www.islamiccenterofpeoria.org/miracles.html#Qur'an%20on%20Seas%20and%20Rivers:
as we know, there are many different types of barriers,
for example, there are radiating barrier, Iron curtain
barriers, leaky barriers..etc. The Quran does not state
what TYPE of barrier, and the ambigious phrase,forbidding,
inviolable barrier (barzakhan wahijran mahjooran) does not
tell us what TYPE of barrier.
"Muhammad must have heard about this phenomenon but
his knowledge was not complete and he assumed that the
waters never mix. "
total baseless assumption, show us proof of what you are
saying if you are truthful
"That is why he is talking of barriers between the
seas. There is no such barrier at all and all waters do
mix. "
this is a false statement, there is indeed a barrier
between the seas.. science has confirmed this,
http://www.islamiccenterofpeoria.org/miracles.html#Qur'an%20on%20Seas%20and%20Rivers:
but is also important to point out that the Quran does not
state what TYPE of barrier(radiating barrier, Iron curtain
barriers, leaky barriers..etc.)
therefore, here is the conclusion:
1. Quran accurately affirms that there are barriers
between the
seas and and between fresh and salt water.
2. To sum up what ali states, he passes it off as a
coincidence.. I am
willing to hold this as a possiblity, but we would need to
calculate
the probability of this coincidence, and multiply it with
the Ali Sina's
other probabilities he cited:
1/2 X 1/10,000 X 1/10,000
3. Ali's attempt to show scientific error was thwarted.
Quran and Darkness of the Ocean
"Isnt this obvious to anyone who has taken a dive
into the water to know that the deeper you go the darker
it becomes"
you obviously seem lost here... from the very beginning of
my debate, I said I would entertain all possibilities,
infact, I even gave you all the logical possibilities:
IF Statement = Scientific fact THEN
(it can be one or more of the following 8 possibilities)
A. Perhaps the author of the statement was a genious
B. A very good guess,luck
C. Perhaps the author of the statement was a great
scientist
D. Coincidence (ex: a poetic statement which just happened
to match
up with science),luck, and the author had no intention of
talking
about science; it was an accident. No intention.
E. Common sense (ex: rain causes grass to grow)
F. The scienctific fact is observable.
G. The information already pre-existed in history
(this can only be entertained if we have historical
errors)
H. A source greater than man was involved
all you have done thus far is give examples of A-G ,
nothing else. Therefore, you are refuting nothing.
anyhow, you are saying, that the author of the Quran saw
light getting less, then made a correct guess, that out of
the following possibilities:
A. at the very bottom it will be completely dark
B. the ground is refracting the light back
C. there is a point of equilibrium of light meaning the
amount
of light stays constant the rest of the way down.
D. A shade of light must always exist, because HOW CAN
FISH SEE WHERE THEY ARE GOING WITHOUT LIGHT? HOW CAN
PLANTS ON THE BOTTOM GROW WITH OUT LIGHT????????
So, as you can see, there are atleast 4 possibilities.
it would be common sense for a person to pick D , but I
will be agreeable with Ali here, and put the GUESS as 1/4
probability.
1/2 X 1/10,000 X 1/10,000 X 1/4
Iron sent down to earth
"The verse actually should not be taken literally. In
this verse Muhammad is saying that we sent you everything
that you need including iron with which has mighty power
i.e. is strong and can benefit you as well. He did not
mean that the iron, among all the elements, is the only
element that has descended from the heaven"
what you are saying is a possibility, BUT CAN NOT BE
PROVEN TRUE. But if what you are saying is true, then,
this will fall under the category of COINCIDENCE. And as
you know, coincidence, is a bizarre accident.
"In Muhammad's language eveything is "sent' to
man by God and that is the meaning of this word andalna
here"
This is FALSE. Man, Ali, you aint no scholar! No scholar
would make such a stupid statement... the truth is..
First, The word is NOT andalna rather the word is anZalna,
I dont know of any word in the arabic dictionary "andalna"
perhaps you can go to the Hans Weir dictionary and show
me?
Another point, this error of yours tells me that you dont
know Arabic, Mastery of the Arabic language is a
prerequisite to becoming a scholar pal......
the Quran mentions things which are from the earth, and
things which are
not from the earth, here are some things which the earth
produces according to the Quran:
36:36. Glory be to Him, Who has created all the pairs of
that which the earth produces, as well as of their own
(human) kind (male and female), and of that which they
know not
so human beings are from earth:
71:17 . And Allāh has brought you forth from the (dust
of) earth.
[Tafsir At-Tabarī, Vol.29, Page 97]. but it does not talk
about the individual
elements. A human is a composition of the many elements
which have settled on the earth, but the quran does not
say where those elements come from
"He did not mean that God sent the iron from they sky
but since the giver of the iron is God so the verb nadala
is used."
A statement with Absolutely NO proof, what Ali Sina is
doing here, is just showing another hypothetical scenario
of a COINCIDENCE. thats all....
"Mr. Ahmed in the defense of his theory states that
the energy required to create one atom of iron equals
several times the energy stored in the sun."
you careless idiot, I did NOT say that.. rather I said to
create one atom of Iron takes about 4 times as much energy
of our SOLAR SYSTEM
Do me a favor, STOP MISQUOTING ME
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
conclusion:
1. This statment of the Quran matches up with Science 100%
. Science does indeed tell us that Iron could not have
been created by the earth, rather it had to have been sent
down.
2. Ali, suggests but can not prove that it MAY BE a
bizarre COICIDENCE, and you know what that means.......
you got it! PROBABILITY!!!!!! How does 1/500,000 sound?
Quran and Orbits
"Anyone looking at the sky can see that the Sun and
the Moon follow a fixed orbit"
False. Many different cultures had different explanations
for the sun and moon, like birth and death, and all kinds
of stuff.. here is an example:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0917/p18s01-hfgn.html
"The Quran is talking about neither the actual orbit
of the sun around the central star of the Milky Way that
takes 226 million years nor the orbit of the moon around
the Earth that takes 29 days. Muhammad is talking about
the "perceived" orbit of these objects that
takes 24 hours. "
A statement with Absolutely NO proof, what Ali Sina is
doing here, is just showing another hypothetical scenario
of a COINCIDENCE. thats all.... Nevertheless, it is a
hypothetical possibility...
From this point on, this wild-eyed fanatic Ali Sina flies
off in a frenzy.. spinning his own personal
interpretations, building straw man, and reading into the
Quran what is NOT their, I think someone needs to call in
his nurse so he can be sedated. Let me respond to just a
few of this lunatics rantings:
"Dr. Morey, obviously saw you are not a scholar and
did not think you are worth his time. You go around
claiming you have defeated him? How you have defeated him
when he did not even dignify you with a response? "
you idiot, you are making a complete fool out of yourself,
here is his response:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_response.htm
but look here
see how Ali Sina idolizes and looks up
to a known pathological liar!!!
Birds of the same feather flock together
Ali, you make this to easy for me.
"You try to debate with some recognized names on the
net and even though they do not respond to you add them to
your portfolio to make yourself look bigger that who you
really are"
For God sake take your medication, you are not coherent,
man, you are making a complete ass out of yourself and Im
loving every minute of it...
If you see my website, I have a public debate for all
those so called "big names" between me and them
on my website, and future debates are on the way..
as for Robert Morey, he is toast. My article on him has
damaged him irrevocably. The really cool thing is MANY of
his fans are writing me and agreeing with me that he is a
liar.. currenlty I have 2 radio shows which both me and
Robert Morey have been invited to debate... Morey is aware
of them.. lets hope he accepts...and as for debating
Morey, I believe he said yes, but I have fill out some
kind of paper work, and get a letter from my Imaam lol lol
lol
"claiming to have won when we did not even start to
debate"
what did i tell you? You didnt listen to me, I told you DO
NOT LIE ON ME.
Where did I say I have won?? ( before you make an ass out
of yourself again, a knock down is not the samething as a
knock out.. right?)
Where did I say I have won, Ali? I warned you to stop your
lying, But by the grace of God, you have been exposed as a
liar, just like Robert Morey, and I believe my mission is
accomplished here in this post, what you have
demonstrated, even when I gave you fair warning, you still
could not stop lying... because this is your nature.
Dont forget, you must show us proof for the following
statement:
"Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books
that belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah".
If no other book prior to Muhammad mentions this city it
is because Muhammad burned those books."
If you can not come up with the evidence, you promised to
shut down your filthy website.
Remember these wise words:
Birds of the same feather flock together..
And as for your claim, Prophet Muhammed ((PBUH) is a
truthful person and not a liar like you Ali Sina, you bum
thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com
End of you response.
Regards and
_________________
All the best, from Mughal at
http://www.religionandsecularism3.gq.nu/favorite_links.html |
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bread
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 1951
Location: Eurasia
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Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:40 pm
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Such a long winded
brainwashed person. Totally illiterate in terms of
science, history, logic and probability.
Truly one of the worst cases of Islamitis.
This man obviously didtn go to secondary school. (Madrassa
doesnt count)
_________________
Bread, proudly a former Muslim who saw the light.Islam is
the only personality cult dedicated to a dead man,
MuhamMAD. MuhamMAD is the only paedophile, antisemite,
ethnic cleanser and rapist who is worshipped and praised
for ``moral``behaviour. |
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arifqurashi
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 340
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Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:08 pm
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So far this is my
analysis of the debate.
Another sad day for me, I didn't realize the caliber of
Mr. Nadir was sooo below average. It is no wonder that
people cannot debate with this man. I find him very
typical of Islamic debaters where you can only hear noise.
Name calling and insults make up the bulk of his rebuttal,
it is very disconcerting to read comments like this...
| Nadir wrote: |
| This is FALSE. Man, Ali, you aint
no scholar! No scholar would make such a stupid
statement... the truth is.. |
| Nadir wrote: |
| A statement with Absolutely NO
proof, what Ali Sina is doing here, is just
showing another hypothetical scenario of a
COINCIDENCE. thats all.... |
Let us decide that, please. Nadir please do a better job,
so far you're loosing on all fronts cut the Math it's
worthless.
Arif |
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X
Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Posts: 35
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Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:10 pm
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what a pathetic
attempt at a rebuttal Saracen. Your rebuttal on the issue
of the bee was the worst.
And your Lord inspired the bee: build homes in mountains
and trees,
and in (the hives) they build for you.
if the arabic word for bee is feminine Mahomet is simply
stating the obvious. Even I as a kid new that the bees
made hives. Mahomet had no idea that the bees building the
hives were female. There is no revelation here. He was
simply using a feminine word to describe something that is
obvious to everyone. |
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TruthSpeaker
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
Posts: 412
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Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:29 pm
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clutter.
deleted.
_________________
- The only religion, is the religion of truth. Without
truth there can be no reason.
Last edited by TruthSpeaker on Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:03 pm;
edited 1 time in total |
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Orenda
Joined: 03 Aug 2002
Posts: 181
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Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:46 pm
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Could someone please
tell me how the heck does Nadir come up with these
figures?
Why is everything 1 out of 500,000 ?
In the case of Iram; as if a person knows or happens
across 500,000 legends on ancient cities in order to
somehow pick the correct 1 out of the supposed 500,000
others? (Which is such a high figure, you take it as
miraculous)
I dont think I will ever know 500,000 of anythings in my
entire lifetime! : )
As if there even were 500,000 ancient cities at all ???
What is likely, is an ancient city being mentioned in an
ancient book.(Qur'an)
What is coincidence, is being able to find that city today
to verify its existence. Not the other way around.
As for pre-Islamic Arabian poetry, is this something which
was not under threat and survived through books, or was
this something that was passed down by word of mouth? We
know Mohammed destroyed idols, we know early Muslims burnt
Qur'ans.
Is it only Pre-Islamic poetry
which remains? Wouldnt there have been Historic books,
Religious books, ??
As for the barrier of seas, Could you please provide a
link that is unbiased ? Your link was from an Islamic
website.
As for dark depths of the oceans, Ali Sina was correct in
his refutation so please do not call this a 1 in 10,000
chance. lol
As for lowest point on Earth, please you also know Ali
Sina was correct.
As for the Iron, I read also that the same wording for
"Iron being sent down" was the same as when
Qur'an mentions cows are given to you.
So are cows sent from outerspace too?
The very fact that Qur'an is so vague and lacking any real
substance somehow invites this type of thinking.
Dear Nadir,
Since the Quran does not say anything about the Queen bee,
then why do you believe that the Qur'an says the Queen bee
is female?
If the Arabic
word for a bee was already feminine, then this
thing is solved already. I am sorry but, Where is the
miracle here?
Simply the Arabs saw some feminine quality in them.
So you are absolutely false in saying 1/2 chance.
You quoted an ayah 3:7. It is He Who has sent down to you
(Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ān). In it are Verses
that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the
Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkām (commandments,
etc.), Al-Farā'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal
laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and
others not entirely clear. So
as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from
the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear
thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials,
etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but
none knows its hidden meanings save Allāh. And
those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We
believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses)
are from our Lord." And none receive admonition
except men of understanding.
I have a big problem with this ayah I am hoping you can
help me to understand. To me this ayah is entirely
illogical. Why would Allah purposefully send revelations
which are unclear? and that he knows that will cause
Fitnah and that he knows people will use the unclear
verses for evil. ? Why would I purposefully give unclear
directions to my friend when I know the chance could mean
the loss of her very life?
Why send unclear meanings at all, because Allah says none
know the hidden meaning except Allah. Therefore, it would
be useless to study the Qur'an front and back, in fact the
ayah implies that searching for hidden meanings cause
fitnah. Allah has declared that only he knows the hidden
meaning.
Yet, at the same time, Allah expects those people who are
knowledgable to say we believe in it, all of it. The clear
AND unclear.
How can they believe in the unclear parts when they can
not know the meaning?!
P.S. I was dissappointed in your description of the
personality in Paltalk named Christian_Prince is
unfounded. What is this based on, please?
I have listened to him for nearly a year and have never
heard this person say one curse word, not one.
Those "insults" are simply him reading Hadith,
or Qur'an to which we find ugly and offensive. (In fact I
hear they are even uglier in Arabic?)
Unfortunately, ignorance still abounds in this world and
you will come across racist and hateful people easily on
the worldwide web.
But to categorize anyone who speaks against Islam as
racist and hateful, is entirely unfair and inaccurate.
Remember, you can just as easily find hateful, ignorant
Muslims talking trash about Americans, Christians and
Hindus.
Regards,
Orenda |
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MrHappy
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 52
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Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:02 pm
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I was hoping to
follow this debate but the thread has become so cluttered
it is making it too difficult. 
Has nadir managed to proove anything
yet ? |
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yeezevee
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2640
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:43 pm
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| Quote: |
| MrHappy: thread has become so
cluttered it is making it too difficult |
I agree with you mrHappy.. I wonder whether this could be
solved by Making new FOLDER "Debates and
Discussion"..where debaters will have their own
folder and below that Discussion from the reader about the
debate follows.. that may help the reader to focus on
debaters ..instead of focusing on responders..
| Quote: |
e.g.
Reader's Comments On This Forum
Comments on the articles posted in the main site
Comments on current events
**DEBATES AND DISCUSSIONS***
Opinions
Resource Center
etc... |
In any case I would refrain throwing unnecessary
insults at Mr. Nadir. necessary is O. K.. I read him doing
that often against his debater. .He also sound like as if
he is on medicine.. Just a suggestion Nadir.. please read
Twice before you post..
with regards
yeezevee |
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yeezevee
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2640
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:07 pm
Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Nadir_Ahamad: If you can not come
up with the evidence, you promised to shut down
your filthy website.
Remember these wise words:
Birds of the same feather flock together..
And as for your claim, Prophet Muhammed ((PBUH) is
a truthful person and not a liar like you Ali Sina,
you bum
Remember these wise words:
you promised to shut down your filthy website.
For God sake take your medication, you are not
coherent, man, you are making a complete ass out
of yourself and Im loving every minute of it
but look here
see how Ali Sina idolizes and
looks up to a known pathological liar!!!
you idiot, you are making a complete fool out of
yourself, here is his response:
Let me respond to just a few of this lunatics
rantings:
you careless idiot, I did NOT say that.
This is FALSE. Man, Ali, you aint no scholar! No
scholar would make such a stupid statement "I
listened to Denis Giron's debate and I thought the
argument of 'chance' was rather ridiculous"
here
is a smart kid, he knows the pit falls that lie
ahead... I only wish Ali Sina had the same common
sense
so I will simply be repeating my arguments...
perhaps, the next time around Ali will attempt to
refute them. This is going to be a cakewalk.....
"I
try to interprete Islam in a language that nigger
Muslims understand.
As far as I am concerned all Muslims are lowest of
the breed."
Rather, Ali Sina, what you are, is a garbage man.
dude.... listen.... you aint no scholar in Islam,
youre a "POSER"... you dont even have
the prerequisites of being a scholar.. have you
mastered the Arabic language??
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What all i see above dear Nadir is.. you are indeed a
grown up man but walking in diapers....
regards
yeezevee |
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