Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: Yesterday, 06:11 AM Member No.: 258 Gender: Male Religion: Kufr
Hello everyone
I am not a Muslim and I don’t know whether non-Muslims are allowed to
post here or not. If not please let me know and I will refrain from
posting more messages.
If I am allowed I have a few questions. I’ll start with the most basic.
I read part of the messages here and I see some of the Muslims desire
martyrdom and love to die in the cause of their faith. My question is the
following:
I know you are sure that after you die or in your words become martyrs you
will go to paradise. But how can you be sure of that?
As probably many of you remember in 1979, 900 members of the cult of
People’s
Temple
, the followers of Rev. Jim Jones committed mass suicide.
The members of this cult, stirred by their leader Jim Jones, fed a
poison-laced drink to their children, administered the potion to their
infants, and drank it themselves. Their bodies were found lying together,
arm in arm; over 900 perished.
They gave testimony to their faith with their lives. We can be certain
that they were true believers. But was that the proof that their faith was
true?
In 1995 Shoko Asahara, a Japanese self proclaimed messiah convinced his
followers that by killing others they will be liberated from their bad
Karma and hence any wise person can see that this benefits both the victim
and the killer. His followers believed in what he told them to the extent
that they went out on a killing spree releasing saran gas in
Tokyo
subways massacring dozens of innocent people and injuring hundreds. They
were ready to die for their belief too. Is this strong faith proof of the
truth of their belief?
Cases like this abound. If anyone is interested this is the site that
talks about cults and their dangerous beliefs: http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/cults1.html
My question is: what makes you so sure that Islam is not also a misguided
belief like these cults?
Obviously the intense faith of the believers is no proof of the truth of
any religion. You can doubt the faith of the followers of these cults. If
you read the link I gave above, you’ll see that the believers of these
cults were so convinced that nothing, including their lives mattered to
them. So clearly the very fact that you have faith in Islam is no proof
that Islam is a true religion.
I want you to tell me what proof you have that Islam is indeed different
and not another cult.
Proof must be objective, not subjective. Feelings are subjective. That is
an invalid argument. The misguided followers of the above cults has strong
feelings too.
Can anyone give me an objective proof that Islam is from God?
I should also say that I have visited a few anti Islamic sites and the
argument they present against Islam seems very convincing. But of course
it is not wise to make judgments before hearing both sides of the story.
So although the proof presented against Islam is very strong, I have not
made my mind yet because I need to hear the other side too before making
any wise decision.
That is what brings me here. I have heard one side and now I want to hear
the other side. Only then I can make an unbiased decision.
Group: Members Posts: 395 Joined: 28-August 04 Member No.: 154 Gender: Female Religion: Islam
i think u are allowed to
post here as long as you say nothing bad about islam...
but as regards to your questions i will reply to you later....as i am
running late.
ciao
--------------------
oh ye who believe!what is the
matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth in the Cause of
Allah, you cling heavily to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this
world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as
compared with the hereafter. (10:38)
oh ummat of nabi muhammed(SAW) dont not despair over the words of
the kuffar. victory will be for the ummat of nabi muhammed(SAW). make sure
you have a share of its rewards
allahummansur almuhahideen fi kulli makaan
allahumaghfirli ummati muhammedur rasulullah(peace be upon him)
Group: Members Posts: 2,581 Joined: 4-July 04 From: planet mars Member No.: 37 Gender: Female Religion: Islam
QUOTE
I
know you are sure that after you die or in your words become martyrs you
will go to paradise. But how can you be sure of that?
in the same way you may be sure that tomorrow issaturday and not sunday we
are sure that islam is the true religion...u cant find even one mistake if
u looked.... so from this belief we have been told of the status and
promise of a matyr in heavan..this we hope and wish for everyday..if eyes
were open and you saw what this status and reward is..you too would
strongly desire to be a martyr in the path of ALLAH the Most
High....comiting suicide by drinking poison is a totally different
thing..suicide in such a manner isnt allowed
QUOTE
My
question is: what makes you so sure that Islam is not also a misguided
belief like these cults?
i kind of answered your question.. islam really the true islam..you need
to study islam..doing so you will find no problems with it.. islam isnt a
cult or something..it is submission to one God..ALLAH the God of moses,
abraham, jesus, u name it..they all prayed to the same ALLAH! Muhammed SAW
was the last prophet and he brought to us a humans a complete
PERFECT WAY
OF LIFE... now leading this life the way he showed us..gives us peace of
mind..no problems. no dilemas..because he showed us the right way of doing
everything.
now you may think..if this is the case then what are all those
`fundamentalists` and `terrorists` doing out in the world today? well the
answer is they are niether fundamentalists nor terrorists..we love our
muslim brothers and what is written in the news isnt anywhere near the
truth.
durban, south africa Member No.: 1 Gender: Female Religion: Islam
hello and welcome.
before i answer any of your questions id firstly like to know wat makes u
think that islam is a "cult" ? do u address the other abrahamic
faiths as "cults" ?
i also dont have much time right now, but im re-opening this thread again
[
Abu
Yusuf] u are allowed to ask us questions about islam.
God willing, i shall be online 2mro afternoon.
--------------------
“And whosoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such
are the Kaafiroon” [al-Maa'idah
5:44]
Group: Members Posts: 395 Joined: 28-August 04 Member No.: 154 Gender: Female Religion: Islam
ok am back...woulda replied
earlier but was closed for abit.
anyway you said?:
QUOTE
I
know you are sure that after you die or in your words become martyrs you
will go to paradise. But how can you be sure of that?
The concept of martyrdom in Islam can only be understood in the light of
the Islamic concept of Holy Struggle (jihad) and the concept of jihad may
only be appreciated if the concept of the doctrine of enjoining right and
discovering wrong (al-amr bi'l-maruf) is properly appreciated, and good
and bad, right and wrong, can only be understood if the independent divine
source of righteousness, truth, and goodness (tawhid), and how the Message
of the divine source of righteousness and truth has been honestly and
properly conveyed to humanity through prophethood, are understood. Finally
the divine message may not be fully appreciated unless the embodiment of
this divine message, or the Model of Guidance, and the Supreme Paradigm
(imama or uswa) is properly recognized.
before you even have this belief of dying as martyr and go to heaven, you
must first understand the basics of islam.
the total submission to allah. the belief there is no god except for allah
and muhammed peace be upon was his messenger.
what is purpose of life: total submission to allah. so you always strive
in the way of allah. you try your best to resist the temptations of
shaytan.
so since we believe in the allah completly we believe in his books, his
messengers. the quran states their will be heaven and hell. if we live
according to islam: we go heaven and vice versa.
if we fight in way of allah: the reward will be heaven as it is for allah
we are fighting for.
i believe in islam body and mind. i belive in quran. quran it says martyrs
will go heaven. and so they will.
QUOTE
My
question is: what makes you so sure that Islam is not also a misguided
belief like these cults?
if you compare quran with any other books of other religions you will see
islam is only religion not altered in any way.
if you look at the bible you will see that latin was not the original
language the Bible was originally written in Aramaic language*.. and that
is the whole point.. because it was translated to so many other languages
over and over again.
now you see that is the problem, you cannot translate a language to
another without altering its meanings.
as reagrds to the quran: it was revealed in arabic and even till today it
has not been altered in the slighest. there is also proof of this. there
is quran that was written during that time which still exists today, and
if you compare it to the quran today, it is exactly the same.
so since our guidance is from either the quran or the sunnah, we follow
it. and since the quran is perfect then islam is not a misguided concept.
QUOTE
Can
anyone give me an objective proof that Islam is from God?
the quran. if you read it, you will find that there is no scientific
inaccuracies in it. some of the things written it quran that were revealed
about 1400 yrs ago have only been recently discovered.
for example if you look at the following verse from the quran:
''those who reject our(allahs) signs we shall cast in the fire: as often
as thier skins are roasted through, we shall change them for fresh skins,
that they may taste the penalty; for allah is exalted in power and
might(sura 4, al_nisa 4:56)
this was a refernce to the dermatological phenomenon which modern science
has only recently discovered, namely that the skin contains all the nerve
endings and that if a burn is very deep and the skin is completey burned,
then it loses its sense of pain and the person afflicted does not actually
feel it. allah is aware of this fact and accordingly makes sure that the
unbel;ievers consigned hell feel the pain constantly by replacing the skin
time and time again so the nerve ending is renewed.
now this is impossible that this could have come from any human source,
considering the fact the quaran is 1400 yrs old text. this sort of
knowledge was simply not known at the time. from whom do this come
from.....allah.
lets look at another example of science recnty discovered that was
revealed in quran 1400 yrs ago.
''it is allah that takes the souls(of men) at death; those that die not
(he takes) during their sleep: those on whome he has passed the decree of
death; he keeps back(from returning to life): but the rest he sends (to
their bodies) for a term appointed. verily in this are signs for those who
reflect.'' (sura 39 al-zummar :verse 42)
it has been scientifically been proven that sleep and death are one single
process as stated in the above verse of the quran.
experiments show that something goes out of the human body when a man or
woman is asleep and returns later which make them awake. but with death
that something soes not return. and that is exactly what the quran says.
this was proven by dr alison and dr al- mushrefi.
and so islam is by god....and is why i am ever so grateful to allah for
making me a muslim. ALLAH HU AKBAR.(ALLAH IS GREAT)
I Hope i have answered your question.
May allah guide you.
--------------------
oh ye who believe!what is the
matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth in the Cause of
Allah, you cling heavily to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this
world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as
compared with the hereafter. (10:38)
oh ummat of nabi muhammed(SAW) dont not despair over the words of
the kuffar. victory will be for the ummat of nabi muhammed(SAW). make sure
you have a share of its rewards
allahummansur almuhahideen fi kulli makaan
allahumaghfirli ummati muhammedur rasulullah(peace be upon him)
Group: Members Posts: 1,087 Joined: 14-August 04 Member No.: 122 Gender: Male Religion: Islam
I am not going to try to provide proof or answer your questions as the
other board members are doing that now.
But, I want to say something. I suggest, before you make a drastic and
serious decision on Islam, you do one thing. Either buy a book or listen
to audio tapes on something called "The Minor and Major Signs of the
Day of Judgement".
There is no denying these signs. Many of them have clearly occured, some
are occuring now, and some will occur in the future. This is proof of
Islam.
I expect you will probably not make much effort into your decision and
will probably not read a book or listen to audiotapes on this, but I am
posting this incase you do actually decide to. If you want any more
information on where to purchase them from, ask me and I would be glad to
help you.
--------------------
"A group of my
followers will remain prevailing by the truth unaffected by those who let
them down until the Last Hour while they will still be the same"
-Bukhari 3640-1
Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: Yesterday, 06:11 AM Member No.: 258 Gender: Male Religion: Kufr
QUOTE
Have
you ever read the Quran?? (obviously the translation if you don't speak
Arabic)
Hi,
Yes I read the Quran to make sure what the anti Islamic sites say about
Islam is not a fabrication. I fail to see anything miraculous in that
book. In fact there are many statements that seem bizarre and incorrect.
For example splitting the moon, sun setting in murky waters, Jews becoming
apes, lizards and swine, Miraj, jinn and many more statements are
unscientific.
So if you think just by reading the Quran one will immediately discover
that it is a miracle, no I did not get that feeling after reading that
book. Quite the contrary I ended up having more questions about Islam
after reading the Quran.
I did not read the Quran in Arabic, but whenever I felt something is not
quite right I read several translations of that verse to make sure it is
not the error of the translator. And yes all the translators said the same
thing in different words. So I doubt that the Arabic Quran says anything
different.
Is it possible that there is an entirely different meaning to these verses
that I missed? It could be. So here I am willing to listen to your
explanation. I want to hear how Muslims defend these charges against their
faith and whether everyone is lying or Muslims are denying the truth. I
hope your answers will clarify this issue.
Amani wrote:
QUOTE
in
the same way you may be sure that tomorrow issaturday and not sunday we
are sure that islam is the true religion...u cant find even one mistake if
u looked.... so from this belief we have been told of the status and
promise of a matyr in heavan..this we hope and wish for everyday..if eyes
were open and you saw what this status and reward is..you too would
strongly desire to be a martyr in the path of ALLAH the Most
High....comiting suicide by drinking poison is a totally different
thing..suicide in such a manner isnt allowed
So what you say is that you are willing to become a martyr and are
absolutely sure that you’ll be rewarded because the Quran is without
error.
Well as I stated above I did not see the Quran this way or I would have
converted to Islam after reading that book. I found many errors. Some of
them I mentioned above but there are many more.
Now, is it possible that I misunderstood the Quran? Yes it is possible. We
will know the truth after you clarify your position.
QUOTE
now
you may think..if this is the case then what are all those
`fundamentalists` and `terrorists` doing out in the world today? well the
answer is they are niether fundamentalists nor terrorists..we love our
muslim brothers and what is written in the news isnt anywhere near the
truth.
Okay, I have no problem you loving someone that I do not love. However you
say that these terrorists are not terrorists and that the media is not
telling the truth. Can you explain that? Do you mean these terrorists did
not massacre hundreds of children in Beslan? Was that all fake news? How
about the bombing in Madrid, Bali, NYC? Are they all lies? Didn’t these
things happen?
Forget about this now! Let us talk about the Quran. If the Quran is proven
to be from God then all these killings are justifiable since these
terrorists are doing what the Quran is requiring from them to do. So let
us concentrate on the Quran and find out whether it is from God. That
should be the focus of our discussion. The rest is secondary and as I said
will automatically fall into place if the Quran is proven to be from God.
Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: Yesterday, 06:11 AM Member No.: 258 Gender: Male Religion: Kufr
Dear Um Ali
Thanks for your welcome.
You wrote:
QUOTE
before
i answer any of your questions id firstly like to know wat makes u think
that islam is a "cult" ? do u address the other abrahamic faiths
as "cults" ?
I think I did not explain myself clearly. I said I am reserving any
judgment until I have all the facts and I have heard your responses.
Let me explain this with an example.
Suppose you are a judge or a policeman. Someone accuse me of being a
thief. You summon me and tell me you are accused of theft; is that true?
What should be my response to you? I can’t say, hey why you accuse me of
being a thief. You are not passing a judgment. At this point you are
simply investigating. You heard one side of the story and now you want to
hear my side too. If I am not guilty, I can answer to all your questions
and clear my name. You will not of course believe me if I tell you no I am
not guilty. You will probe farther. For example you’ll ask where I was
on the time that the crime took place, what I was doing, who saw me, etc.
etc. You cross examine me to make sure I am telling the truth. What would
you conclude if I get angry and do not answer your questions? Doesn’t
this give you a clue that I am guilty?
I said already, I am trying to be as fair to myself as I can. I consider
it to be foolish to come to a conclusion without hearing both sides of the
story. So far I read only the side of the non-Muslims. I read also many
articles written by ex-Muslims and they are very convincing. I read the
Quran and I see it contains many errors. But it would be foolish to come
to a conclusion without even listening to Muslims. Just as it would be
foolish for a judge to convict an accused of a crime without even giving
him a chance to defend himself it would be foolish for me to discard Islam
and call it a cult before I listen to the Muslims.
So I am going to ask questions that are accusatory, in other words I probe
you to get to the bottom of the problem but that does not mean I already
accuse Islam of being a cult. I’ll reserve that judgment after I listen
carefully to the defendants of Islam.
Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: Yesterday, 06:11 AM Member No.: 258 Gender: Male Religion: Kufr
QUOTE
before
you even have this belief of dying as martyr and go to heaven, you must
first understand the basics of islam.
Hi Muslimah
I agree. I already said; let us not talk about martyrdom or other
teachings of Islam. Let us first understand the basics of Islam. That is
why I asked the basic question. The question is how you can prove to me
that the Quran is from God.
If the Quran is proven to the word of God then of course whatever the
Quran says it true and the terrorists are not terrorists but they are
martyrs and they will be rewarded handsomely as the Quran states. But if
the Quran cannot be proven to be the word of God then the terrorists are
terrorists and will not go to heaven but they will go to hell for
murdering innocent people. I think that is fair. So let us talk about the
Quran first.
As the proof that Quran is the word of God you wrot:
QUOTE
if
you compare quran with any other books of other religions you will see
islam is only religion not altered in any way.
Apart from the fact that this is a controversial point and there are those
who claim the present Quran is altered and contains many verses from the
pre Islamic prayers, stories and concepts, I do not want to get into that
controversy and for the sake of the argument accept your claim that the
Quran is not altered.
But that is not a proof of the divine origin of a book. There are other
books that date back to many centuries before Islam that are not altered
too. Many Hindu and Buddhist scriptures are in poetries. You can’t
change poetries easily. The code of Hamurabi is 4000 years old. We have
copies of this book that date back to thousands of years ago. The book
Kalila and damna is also an ancient book that has not changed. But it is a
book of fables. So the claim that the Quran is not changed per se is no
proof that it is from God. The only way it can be shown to be from God is
that it does not contain errors and contradictions. Even one error would
disqualify it. God can’t make mistakes.
QUOTE
now
you see that is the problem, you cannot translate a language to another
without altering its meanings.
I disagree with that statement. Books are translated from all languages to
all languages. It is not logical to think Arabic is the only language that
cannot be translated properly. There are more than a dozen of the
translations of the Quran. The gist of all of them is the same.
Furthermore, if this claim were true, I ask why God would choose Arabic to
communicate with us humans. Why not choose a language that does not
present this translation handicap?
Also the Quran in several places asserts to be a clear book and an easy
book to understand. Hence claiming that this book cannot be translated
properly and no one can understand it, enough to put it right English
language belies the very claim of the Quran that it is an easy and clear
book.
QUOTE
the
quran. if you read it, you will find that there is no scientific
inaccuracies in it. some of the things written it quran that were revealed
about 1400 yrs ago have only been recently discovered.
Okay. Since the entire belief system is based on the claim that the Quran
is perfect, let us talk about this point only. Please provide me one
statement of the Quran that proves its author had scientific knowledge
that was not available to the people of his time that only now we discover
to be true. I know there are several claims but for the sake of brevity
let us talk about them one by one.
Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: Yesterday, 06:11 AM Member No.: 258 Gender: Male Religion: Kufr
Muslimah wrote:
QUOTE
for
example if you look at the following verse from the quran:
''those who reject our(allahs) signs we shall cast in the fire: as often
as thier skins are roasted through, we shall change them for fresh skins,
that they may taste the penalty; for allah is exalted in power and
might(sura 4, al_nisa 4:56)
this was a refernce to the dermatological phenomenon which modern science
has only recently discovered, namely that the skin contains all the nerve
endings and that if a burn is very deep and the skin is completey burned,
then it loses its sense of pain and the person afflicted does not actually
feel it. allah is aware of this fact and accordingly makes sure that the
unbel;ievers consigned hell feel the pain constantly by replacing the skin
time and time again so the nerve ending is renewed.
now this is impossible that this could have come from any human source,
considering the fact the quaran is 1400 yrs old text. this sort of
knowledge was simply not known at the time. from whom do this come
from.....allah.
Only a believer can see miracles in that verse. As a non-believer frankly
I see none. When I was a child I used to play fencing with sticks with
other kids. We pretended that if the stick hits the arm of the opponent it
means the arm is cut off and he could not use it again. When both arms
were cut off the game was over. But we wanted to play more so we pretended
to restore the arm. Now this does not mean that at that tender age we knew
anything about limb transplant. Limb transplant recently is being tried.
Several decades ago we had no idea of such thing being possible. Does this
show we were inspired by God?
In this verse there is no reference to nerve ending, or any dermatological
facts. Muhammad is simply stating that Allah will punish you over and
over.
Now apart from the fact that there is nothing extraordinary in that verse,
what bothers me most is the nature of the Islamic god. What kind of god is
Allah that would punish infinitely in such horrendous way humans for minor
sins?
Suppose you have a child and you give him everything he needs so he lives
it comfort. The only thing you require from him is that he says hello to
you when he sees you and respect you. That is not much to ask after all
you did for him. But this child of yours is ungrateful. He denies all the
favors you did to him and does not respect you at all. What is the
appropriate punishment of such ungrateful child? [This is not the case
with us humans because most of humans come to this world and live a life
of pain and suffering until we die. So I see no reason to be grateful to a
god who gives nothing but suffering]
Of course you would be offended. But would you burn him? Would you torture
him? Now think about it. You know how much it hurts if you burn a finger
for one second. This god you are talking about burns your entire body not
for a second, a minute or a year, but for eternity. He makes your skin to
re-grow just to burn you again. If a parent does such thing to his
ungrateful child what would you think of him? Wouldn’t you immediately
conclude that he is a sadist? Is the god of Muslims a sadist?
I know this is a tough question. But it is just a question. It is up to
you to answer and clarify this point. Explain to me how can the maker of
this world do such thing that only as psychopath and a sadist would do?
And you want me to respect and love this god? Can you really force love
with threats of punishment?
Imagine you have a husband who says if you don’t love me I will burn you
slowly so you die a painful death. Would you still love that man? Can you
really love him?
Love cannot be forced. Doesn’t Allah know that? The way you describe
your god to me it seems that he is a psychopath. He is not deserving of
being loved.
So there are three alternatives:
A- Quran is mistaken.
B- Quran is right and God is a sadist
C- You (Muslimah) do not understand this verse and there should be another
explanation.
Which one is the right answer dear Muslimah?
This post has been edited by just
human: Yesterday, 09:33 PM
Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: Yesterday, 06:11 AM Member No.: 258 Gender: Male Religion: Kufr
QUOTE
lets
look at another example of science recnty discovered that was revealed in
quran 1400 yrs ago.
''it is allah that takes the souls(of men) at death; those that die not
(he takes) during their sleep: those on whome he has passed the decree of
death; he keeps back(from returning to life): but the rest he sends (to
their bodies) for a term appointed. verily in this are signs for those who
reflect.'' (sura 39 al-zummar :verse 42)
it has been scientifically been proven that sleep and death are one single
process as stated in the above verse of the quran.
experiments show that something goes out of the human body when a man or
woman is asleep and returns later which make them awake. but with death
that something soes not return. and that is exactly what the quran says.
this was proven by dr alison and dr al- mushrefi.
and so islam is by god....and is why i am ever so grateful to allah for
making me a muslim. ALLAH HU AKBAR.(ALLAH IS GREAT)
I Hope i have answered your question.
May allah guide you.
First of all death and sleep are completely different phenomena. The
misconception that death is a kind of sleep is an old misconception.
The Seventh Day Adventists and other Christian groups also believe that
death is a peaceful sleep for the soul. The following link shows Muslims
are not the only people that are confused on this issue. http://www.wordonly.com/CI06.html
Now this proves two things. One is that the idea that sleep and death are
similar predates Muhammad and hence if it is true it can’t be attributed
to him and second is that such notion is utterly wrong. There is no real
scientific proof showing something going out of the body when you sleep.
All animals and even the bacteria sleep. Sleep is a biological phenomenon
for recovery and has nothing to do with death.
Let us continue on this trait. So far we discussed only two claims that
would prove that the Quran is the word of God and both these claims are
unsubstantiated. Let us see more.
This does not prove that the Quran is not the word of God. It just shows
that these claims are false. But the Quran could be true and there might
be other good and convincing arguments that would prove such claim. I
would like to hear that.
This post has been edited by just
human: Yesterday, 09:17 PM
Group: Members Posts: 1,087 Joined: 14-August 04 Member No.: 122 Gender: Male Religion: Islam
I want to tell you 2 things Just Human.
1. There is an open challenge by your creator in the Quran. It has been
open for 1400 years. Allah says if reject the Quran and that it is created
by Allah then try to create one Ayah of its like.
An ayah is similar to a sentence in the Quran. Arab poets have been trying
to do this for 1400 years with no avail. If you say Mohammad
created
the Quran, then how did he do this as an illiterate?
2. The Quran explains, in detail, how birth occurs in the mother womb.
This was never explained prior to the Quran coming down. Relatively
recently, people have learnt it in detail. If one of the brothers or
sister here would post the ayaat about this that would be good (I no
longer have them with me). Nonetheless, I am sure you know I would not
make up lies about the Quran.
These are 2 "proofs" of the Quran. Now, they would be proof if
you chose to believe in them. If you do not, then you will make up every
possible way of denying them, as your people normally do. I understand
arguments, but sometimes they are just excuses.
Try, if you can, to look at Islam with an open mind. If you look at it
with a closed one, you will deny everything completely and will be wasting
your and our time. If you look at it with an open mind, you may consider
and reflect on it. In the end, you coming to a forum to discuss this shows
your lack of serious interest. If you really intended on learning about
Islam, you would have went out an purchased books about it. But, instead,
you went to the internet.
This post has been edited by Malik:
Today, 12:28 AM
--------------------
"A group of my
followers will remain prevailing by the truth unaffected by those who let
them down until the Last Hour while they will still be the same"
-Bukhari 3640-1
Group: Members Posts: 805 Joined: 13-July 04 From: jazeerat al arabiyya insha'allah, laaken
Amreeka :\ Member No.: 61 Gender: Male Religion: Islam
QUOTE
Ok,
ill just add some things to this
Hello everyone
I am not a Muslim and I don’t know whether non-Muslims are allowed to
post here or not. If not please let me know and I will refrain from
posting more messages.
If I am allowed I have a few questions. I’ll start with the most basic.
I read part of the messages here and I see some of the Muslims desire
martyrdom and love to die in the cause of their faith. My question is the
following:
I know you are sure that after you die or in your words become martyrs you
will go to paradise. But how can you be sure of that?
inherently, if my belier system dictates that dyign for its cause will
take me to paradise, I will be inherently intolerant of other views ie
that I wil believe it as truth, because it is since I am a Muslim.
It is like me asking you "how are you sure you will not burn forever
in the hellfire ifyou do not becoem Muslim?" AAnd then you may
respond with however many theories or doubts to backup your man made
ideology. Its like going to a Christian forum and asking "hey, who of
you is sure Christ was the savior?" Except with the christians
the issue is clear, becasue this assumption can be refuted by the Bible
itself.
QUOTE
As
probably many of you remember in 1979, 900 members of the cult of
People’s Temple, the followers of Rev. Jim Jones committed mass suicide.
The members of this cult, stirred by their leader Jim Jones, fed a
poison-laced drink to their children, administered the potion to their
infants, and drank it themselves. Their bodies were found lying together,
arm in arm; over 900 perished.
They gave testimony to their faith with their lives. We can be certain
that they were true believers. But was that the proof that their faith was
true?
In 1995 Shoko Asahara, a Japanese self proclaimed messiah convinced his
followers that by killing others they will be liberated from their bad
Karma and hence any wise person can see that this benefits both the victim
and the killer. His followers believed in what he told them to the extent
that they went out on a killing spree releasing saran gas in Tokyo subways
massacring dozens of innocent people and injuring hundreds. They were
ready to die for their belief too. Is this strong faith proof of the truth
of their belief?
Cases like this abound. If anyone is interested this is the site that
talks about cults and their dangerous beliefs: http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/cults1.html
Well well, this is very interestign how you say that Islam is a cult, and
liken it to a cult, when there are peopel who die for it.
First of all, no one commits suicide soleley for the sake of committing
suicide in Islam, and if this was your intention then you go to hell. No,
the intention was to kill as much of the enemy as possible, and an easy
way to do this would be to diguise yourself as a normal person in every
day clothes.
So now you say, "why do you die for Islam?" I die for Islam
because I believe, 100%, that it is the truth for all of mankind. For you
to have the audacity to tell me "well, why are you dying for it? its
automatically like a cult", is interesting, because if I said to you
"I will join the American army to die for my country", this is a
completely healthy thing, and patriotism and nationalism for something as
arbatriary as where you happen to have been born[/i[ is considered
perfectly acceptable in this society, and people who die in war are
recognized as heroes in their native countries. Likewise if I look to the
Columbine shootings in Littleton Colorado, there was one girl who was
brought to fame for sayign she was Christian to accept death, thus seekign
her martyrdom for Christianity. Not only this, we see people willing to
wage war in order to uphold political ideologies which have had negative
effects the war world, such as capitalism, communism, socialism,
democracy, etc.
So when I go out and say to you "I am going to defend my land, and
God tells me to defend my land" I am looked upon as being unhealthy
to you, or someone in a cult? its quite funny, because teh Iraqis who are
dyign in Iraq now, of those who are fighting to defend their houses and
cities, and for the palestinians doing the same, or of the Afghan,
Chechen, etc., this is unacceptable. Its kidn of funny because in order to
die for something in the west, it needs to be a secular ideal for it to be
healthy. So when a woman is dying for women's rights and steps in front of
a horse in front of the british Royal family and is killed, or Martin
Luther King is shot, or the Buddhists of Vietnam lit themselves on fire
before accepting subjugation, this is seen as being copletely fine and
rational, even though the intention of the Muslim is much more pure and
much mrore sound- that is self determination and self defense, when we
have been on the recieving end of brutality and terrorism and have had our
land and resources stolen more than any other group of people on this
planet the last 100 yeas. it just isnt palatable to you because the
mainstream of your society reject what we stand for, but then again this
is wartime andthe western media wouldnt like to spin around as ask what a
westerner would do if their head was on the chopping block.
Do you understand where I am coming from?
QUOTE
My
question is: what makes you so sure that Islam is not also a misguided
belief like these cults?
Obviously the intense faith of the believers is no proof of the truth of
any religion. You can doubt the faith of the followers of these cults. If
you read the link I gave above, you’ll see that the believers of these
cults were so convinced that nothing, including their lives mattered to
them. So clearly the very fact that you have faith in Islam is no proof
that Islam is a true religion.
Faith is never a complete proof of anything, actual proofs are a proof of
everything. tehre is a reason why I dont believe in cultural relativism,
Christianity, secular humanism, Judaism, etc., and obiously your faith in
your ideology has absolutely no bearing on whetehr or not it is true, but
this is why we have these forums is so we can discuss things like this.
Youre taking martyrdom in a wrogn context. No one is asking that we poison
ourselves, and just up and coak. No. I am saying, I would love to fight
and if need be die in order to defend my Muslim brothers and sisters
fightign against persecution around the world and being subjected to the
worst crimes against humanity and treatment of any people on this earth. I
would say that also, after seeing the destruction that the western systems
such as capitalism, communism, socialism, and the farce of democracy, I
declare myself a direct enemy to those systems, because you see day to day
the havoc these bring, and you need look no further than many of the
countries some of the members of this forum are from in order to do so.
there is nothing wrong with this, except now the biggest enemy to the US
is the growing urge of the Muslims for Islamic revival, and now that
communism is gone a new scapegoat and enemy must be rooted out and found,
and factors such as peak oil definitely play into this, and the west if
finally seeing the end result of the dictators they set up in these
countries, dictators they help support and still support today. notice how
I said still support, because a dictatorship like the one in Iran is
unacceptable compared to that of Uzbekistan, even though Islam Karimov
committed many more crimes against humanity, and Muslim prisoners are
injected with ids and boiled alive many times, but I dont need to go into
Islam Karimov's record, because I am sure you are well aware of it (or
should I say, should be aware of it). So if I am willing to fight and die
to stop this from happening, you are saying that I am a cult member when
the US troops recieve so much news and airtime when they willingly,
[i]willingly fight, even though now most
are well aware of the true intentions of their home country?
Now objectively, because im sure you love the term and live by it in your
day to day life (right?) do you consider the defender or aggressor (with
all that the aggressor is bringing) to be the one who is more in need of
help, and your obviously extremely enlightening opinions?
....sure youre at the right forum?
QUOTE
I
want you to tell me what proof you have that Islam is indeed different and
not another cult.
By your definition, anything someone is willing to die for is a cult. i
know for a fact, sir or madam, that if you live in the united states you
signed up for the draft, and thus you said you are willing to fight, to
the death, if your country calls on you, at teh behest of the executive
branch of the united states as well as congress, all human figures who can
have their own agendas, and yet you willingly signed up for this as a
condition to live in this country, willingly signing over not only your
will but your freedom if you decide not to go through with it at the very
end.
QUOTE
Proof
must be objective, not subjective. Feelings are subjective. That is an
invalid argument. The misguided followers of the above cults has strong
feelings too.
Faith does not equal proof, yes of course, just how this extremely
objective argument you just gave me does not in any way, shape, or form
prove a thing about what you have said.
I suggest you visit http://www.harunyahya.com
and look through the various sections of that website for proof on the
"secular" and objective levels, and look at teh various sections
of that website. Judging from how you said Muslims are cult members, im
going to guess you are a Christian who frequents anti-Islamic sites in
order to boost your faith in Christianity, and now you want to guide
"those Muzzlems" to the sraight path. Am I very far off? You can
go to http://www.answering-christianity.com
if I was indeed correct in my assumptions.
In the future, I suggest also you dont visit anti Islamic sites before
looking at the arguments of Muslims, but still saying "well, their
opinions seem very convincing". No, this falls flat, completely flat,
just as the arguments you made earlier do in the face of the realities of
the world today, just as you claim to be objective but tried you hardest
in order to subjectively put Islam as a cult because it explains and
outlines martyrdom and fighting in the way of God, so in actuality you
came to this forum in animosity, however big of a smile you showed us to
our faces. I suggest you just be honest and open about your feelings from
now on, saves everyone the hassle of gauging where you are coming from.
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{"And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what
your hands have earned. And He pardons much."} [Ash-Shooraa, 30]
Ya kaffireen, Allahu mawlana wa lah mawla lakum.
So the westerners hate their governments and distances themselves
from the government whenever it does something wrong, and says theyre free
from all blame even though they voted for the people power who have
already outlined what their foreign policies will be in their platforms in
the first place. keep in mind, the banner of the west is "our
governments represent us". So, even with this, they attempt to say to
other "hey, accept democracy" when they cant even accept it
themselves, and openly show that mankind can not handle the responsibility
of its own self rule.
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas
or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized
violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never
do." --Samuel P. Huntington
Group: Members Posts: 805 Joined: 13-July 04 From: jazeerat al arabiyya insha'allah, laaken
Amreeka :\ Member No.: 61 Gender: Male Religion: Islam
QUOTE
Let
us continue on this trait. So far we discussed only two claims that would
prove that the Quran is the word of God and both these claims are
unsubstantiated. Let us see more.
Actually no, what we have is you who is rejecting the position of other
people based on arguments suited around "if I cant see it, it is not
real", so there is no lack of substantiation and the argument used
was perfectly suited, likewise if we are differign on the nature of death,
the existance of the human soul, etc, you can no thonestly say to both
sides "be objective", because the mantle of faith, your faith
and my faith (in these subjects is what I am talking about, those brought
up) can not be disproved in such ways, otherwise atheism would be reigning
supreme by now.
So, I just suggest you use other methods if you wish to incite a debate,
and I woudl prefer it if you stopped hiding behind the banner of
"objectivity", because if you were truly being objective you
would not be trying to dismantle whatever small knoweldge of the Muslim
belief you have, you would be inquiring and asking questions rather than
blatant instigation, and quite frankly it just gets on my nerves. i think
everyone here can plainly see your true intention on coming here, so if
you could drop the act while we are discussing this, perhaps also replace
such a non existant concept of "objectivity" with open
mindedness instead. This is infinitely more productive. Also if you
could narrow the subject down from "is the Quran the word of
God" into something less broad and more specific so no one goes off
track and on tangents, and you should understand this position.
This post has been edited by saajid:
Today, 02:05 AM
--------------------
{"And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what
your hands have earned. And He pardons much."} [Ash-Shooraa, 30]
Ya kaffireen, Allahu mawlana wa lah mawla lakum.
So the westerners hate their governments and distances themselves
from the government whenever it does something wrong, and says theyre free
from all blame even though they voted for the people power who have
already outlined what their foreign policies will be in their platforms in
the first place. keep in mind, the banner of the west is "our
governments represent us". So, even with this, they attempt to say to
other "hey, accept democracy" when they cant even accept it
themselves, and openly show that mankind can not handle the responsibility
of its own self rule.
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas
or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized
violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never
do." --Samuel P. Huntington
Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: Yesterday, 06:11 AM Member No.: 258 Gender: Male Religion: Kufr
QUOTE
There
is an open challenge by your creator in the Quran. It has been open for
1400 years. Allah says if reject the Quran and that it is created by Allah
then try to create one Ayah of its like.
This challenge is ambiguous. In what sense one has to produce a verse or a
Surah similar to the Quran? Aesthetics can never be a measure of truth.
You can challenge me to find a woman as beautiful as the one you love. How
can I convince you that there are other women just as beautiful as the
woman you love? They say love is blind. When you are in love you can’t
see the flaws of your beloved. Your opinion of her is not objective but
very subjective.
You read the Quran as a believer and remain in awe. You can’t see any
errors in it because you are in love with it. I read the same book and
find many errors and in fact a boring book. Now you can say the
translation is boring but the original Arabic is very nice. Okay I can’t
argue with that. But the fact remains that as a non-Arab speaking person I
am not convinced of the beauty of this book. It is not my fault of being
born a non-Arab and hence being deprived of seeing the beauty of the Quran
as you see it. So in a sense God has been extremely unfair to me and to
billions of others who were not born Arabs. We can’t see the beauty of
the Quran because we do not speak Arabic and hence go to hell. Is this
justice? To add insult to the injury God chooses a language that is
impossible to translate in any language and therefore we can’t even see
the beauty of his work in translation. Is this my fault for being born a
non Arab? Certainly not! God made me a non-Arab and thus deprived me of
seeing the beauty of his word and now he wants to burn me for eternity for
failing to see what he deprived me of seeing. What kind of justice is
that? It is like I tell you something in a language that you do not
understand and then punish you for not understanding what I told you. This
is just absurd.
The next problem with that challenge is that it does not seem to be a
sincere challenge. Look what the Quran says right after it issues that
challenge: But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire
whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject
Faith. Qur'an 2.24
This is like someone saying show me a woman as pretty as my wife and if
you cannot – and of a surety you cannot –then I will shoot you.
With that kind of clause who dares even to come forth?
We recall Saddam Hussein had “elections” where 99.98% of the
population voted for him. Did all the Iraqis love him? Of course not! The
elections were held open. The question was: Do you want Saddam? Yes or No?
If you responded no then you could be killed. This Challenge of the Quran
is very much similar to Saddam’s elections.
However, there are some Arab-speaking non Muslims who say the Quran fails
in grammar and aesthetic and they have produced a few Suras to meet this
challenge which is in comparison better than the Suras of the Quran (not
my opinion, but the opinion of Arab ex-Muslims). Please take a look and
tell me why you think the Suras of the Quran are superior to these. http://suralikeit.com/
QUOTE
2.
The Quran explains, in detail, how birth occurs in the mother womb.
Well, I am going to post here an article written by an Arab ex-Muslims who
thinks that when it comes to embryology, Quran is wrong. He is a Medical
Doctor graduated from Canada.
Embryology and Quran
I've read more than one article about the way Quran described the
development of the embryo and the Muslims claim that it resembles the
modern discoveries in a way that make it impossible for any body else but
god to be its author.
Unfortunately I don't think those articles were strong enough in revealing
the truth probably because at least one of their writers doesn't speak
Arabic so, despite that I don't think I read enough about the subject but
I still think that I can make a positive contribution.
The Quran says in Arabic 23-13 and 14 "Thom khalaqna alnotfat alaqa,
fakhalaqna alalaqat modegha, khalaqna almodghat azama, fakasawna alesazm
lahma, thom anshanah khalqan akhr"
The way we could put it in English is "Hence we (god), created the
sperm into (or made it turn into) clot (or whatever it is) then created
from it a lump then we created out of it bones (plural) then we covered
the bones with flesh"
Now, in addition to the fact that many thinkers for 1000's of years had
theories and also some experience on the stages of embryo development, the
above mentioned description is not more than what ordinary person could
imagine, ...building the structure first then hang the other parts on it
or cover it with them...just like erecting a tent.
Now the clear fact that comes in many documents, out of which I could put
my hands only on one of them is that, that is not the truth.
The truth as in the following document (MS Encarta 1998)
The implanted embryo consists of a hollow sphere, the blastocyst,
containing a mass of cells, called the embryonic mass, attached by a stalk
to one side of the encircling membrane. In a blastocyst less than two
weeks old and measuring 1 mm (0.04 in) in diameter, the microscope reveals
the amnion (a sac surrounding the embryo), chorion (a membrane that
develops around the amnion and lines the uterine wall), yolk sac, and
distinct germ layers.
In the third week a closed tube appears in which the brain and spinal cord
are to develop. Another tube, folding on itself, is developing into the
heart, and at about this stage a portion of the minute yolk sac is
enclosed in the body of the embryo to form a part of the embryonic
alimentary canal. At the beginning of its fourth week the embryo, now
about 4 to 5 mm (about 0.16 to 0.2 in) long, has the rudiments of eyes and
ears, and each side of the neck shows four gill clefts. A tail is also
present.
Early in the second month the buds of the arms and legs appear. The major
internal organs begin to take shape, and in about the sixth week bones and
muscles begin to form. By the third month the embryo is recognizable as
that of a primate, and is now called a fetus. It has a definite face, with
the mouth and nostrils distinct, and the external ears are forming. By the
end of the eighth week the tail has usually been incorporated in the body,
and in the 11th or 12th week the external genitals become evident. The
human embryo is especially vulnerable to the damaging effects of X rays,
of disease viruses such as measles, and of certain drugs during the fourth
to the eighth week of gestation. These agents can result in the death of
the embryo or in the birth of a child with deformed limbs or other
abnormalities. By the fourth month an embryo is clearly recognizable as a
human being.
The creation of the brain and the spine happens in parallel, (I think that
the brain is neither flesh nor bones) and then long after the
"BONES" of the arms starts developing which contradict the
Quranic verses that tells us that all the bones are made first then it
gets covered by flesh (only flesh as if we don't have members in our
bodies!!!).
I think that the issue could be studied in more details but just wanted to
clarify my view
QUOTE
Try,
if you can, to look at Islam with an open mind. If you look at it with a
closed one, you will deny everything completely and will be wasting your
and our time.
This is a very vague statement. Show me one person who does not think he
has open mind. Virtually all the people of the world think they have open
minds and those who do not agree with them have close minds.
So far I heard 4 arguments to prove that the Quran is from God and all of
them can be debunked. This does not make the Quran a false book, it only
shows that these four examples are not proof. There could be other
examples that could be undefeatable. I want to hear about them.
You are telling me that martyrdom is good and killing people in good. So I
must make sure your belief is airtight. I can’t just accept things
because you say so. I need proof. All I am asking is one solid proof that
is not subjective.
QUOTE
In
the end, you coming to a forum to discuss this shows your lack of serious
interest. If you really intended on learning about Islam, you would have
went out an purchased books about it. But, instead, you went to the
internet.
I already told you that I read a lot of arguments written by Muslims and
non Muslims, in favor and against Islam. So far I see nothing proving to
me that Islam is a true religion. However I am not a fool to make quick
judgments and decide Islam is cult without investigating it more
thoroughly. I read enough not I need someone answering my questions.
I do not expect you guys to be scholars of Islam. So I don’t mind if you
latch me up with a real scholar so I can ask my questions.
The subject of Islam is very much in the mind of the people and I decided
to write a book based on my findings. I want to be objective. I do not
want to rehash what the anti Islamists say. I want to come to the bottom
of the problem and write a book based on facts and truth and not on
conjectures. It is important that I talk with Muslims and understand their
views too. I have done a lot of reading, now I want to ask direct
questions and receive direct answers. If you do not like questions, just
let me know and I will not post them here anymore.
The reason I chose this forum is because I think it is more honest than
most other Islamic forums. In most Islamic forums I meet Muslims who try
to distance themselves from the terrorists and claim they [terrorists] are
not Muslims. In this forum I see more honesty. I see a lot of you guys
want to become martyrs, kill people and go to paradise. In other forums
can’t debate. But here you praise the terrorists and call them martyrs.
It is you that I want to hear. If there is any justification to all these
murders, you know it better than those who are in denial.
So the very fact that I am here is proof that I want to be as open as
possible. But it does not mean I am going to be as gullible as possible.
You must prove to me that Islam is a true religion. If I am convinced of
that I will reflect that in my book and let the world know. I will not be
convinced simply by you telling me I should have open mind and believe
whatever I am told without questioning it. This is the same argument that
the Christians and others make but that is not a valid argument. I could
say the same thing to you. I could say you don’t have open mind and
believe in absurdities. Is that a valid argument? Would you be swayed if I
say such thing? So that argument is invalid. What I need is proof. Give me
one example that no one can refute.
Group: Members Posts: 805 Joined: 13-July 04 From: jazeerat al arabiyya insha'allah, laaken
Amreeka :\ Member No.: 61 Gender: Male Religion: Islam
QUOTE
This
challenge is ambiguous. In what sense one has to produce a verse or a
Surah similar to the Quran? Aesthetics can never be a measure of truth.
You can challenge me to find a woman as beautiful as the one you love. How
can I convince you that there are other women just as beautiful as the
woman you love? They say love is blind. When you are in love you can’t
see the flaws of your beloved. Your opinion of her is not objective but
very subjective.
Acctually no, because teh argument you are using is along the lines of
"the english translation", when the Quran can not be translated
and not lose what makes it what it is, and the challenge itself is
referring directly to the Arabic source, not an interpretation of the
meaning written in french, english, german, or any other language,
therefore it is unfair for you to say "the Quran is so boring and
useless" and yet you come here without anything to back that opinion,
nor knowing how Muslims come to that opinion which is clear and present
fact in the first place. each verse of the Quran is eloquent, direct to
the point, and if you would look to the Arabic instead of the english
(see, this is hard to explain) the roots of the words go deeper into the
context of each verse, which isnt something found in the english language
so I am not expecting you to understand anything in regards to its beauty,
so until say, you learned some arabic grammar, how can you expect to be in
awe over anything and refute his comments? The truth is, you cant, and you
are in a position where you are attempting to win over each point at all
costs which is preventing you from seeing this. Its an arrogance.
QUOTE
You
read the Quran as a believer and remain in awe. You can’t see any errors
in it because you are in love with it. I read the same book and find many
errors and in fact a boring book.
Was the Quran meant to entertain you at all, and can you name some of
these errors? What tafseer were you reading along with the Quran? You cant
coem here just to insult the book then insult us. Such comments as
"well youre only in love with it because you believe in it", its
a logical fallacy, because you have no idea of the background of the
people of this forum, and you dont know their upbringing. The mahority of
people here grew up in households which were largely secular, and this is
to the best of my knowledge. The site is run by a convert and the one who
happens to be writing this is a convert, so implying we are simply
brainwashed people who fell in love with it due to our upbirnging is both
ignorant and insulting.
QUOTE
Now
you can say the translation is boring but the original Arabic is very
nice.
What do you mean by boring exactly? How it sounds? i dont see the poitn
you are atemptign to make here, at all.
QUOTE
Okay
I can’t argue with that. But the fact remains that as a non-Arab
speaking person I am not convinced of the beauty of this book. It is not
my fault of being born a non-Arab and hence being deprived of seeing the
beauty of the Quran as you see it. So in a sense God has been extremely
unfair to me and to billions of others who were not born Arabs.
Seeign as how the Quran was revealed in arabic and has stayed in Arabic to
prevent corruption, you point is completely moot to begin with. Mankind
attemtps to make translation, teh Quran is purely word of God. this is
like saying it is unfair that Jesus spoke Aramaic and that Moses spoke
Hebrew- it makes no sense whatsoever, and its clear you arent seeing the
bigger picture. Also, you say that God made it unfair to non Arabs- even
though Arabs are a minority in the Muslim world and islam is the fastest
growing religion in the west and east, which is very interesting in light
of the comments you just made, because youre attempting to complain about
something and nitpick into points which are mooted by reality.
Whats interesting is that, i could cargue that we are being unfair to non
french speakers or spainish speakers, because we arent saying this in
spanish or french. Its liek sayign the US constitution, we can disregard
the original copy which is held in the district of columbia, perhaps throw
it away, and leave it open to be changed etc, or maybe the official
language of Kenya should be changed to Hindi to suit the Indian minorities
there. Is this logical? Of course not. And why are you being so unfair to
soem of our visitors in france who can barely speak english? Why arent you
typing in french?
QUOTE
We
can’t see the beauty of the Quran because we do not speak Arabic and
hence go to hell. Is this justice?
No, you go to hell because of kufr and shirk, and this is ibviously a
point pulled from someone who knows little about Islam if you happen to
think "hey, i cant see the beauty of the Quran". Maybe you
shoudl make your arguments clearer to converts- like me, or the millions
in North America and Europe and Asia and Africa and Oceana who accepted
the religion, but I do hwoever like how you based your arguments on
assuming all of us are arab. Obviously this comes from the vast amounts of
research you have on the subject of Islam, even though studying Muslims
for more than 10 minutes will elad you to the conclusion that Arabs are a
minority in the Muslim world, as well as on this very forum, and
that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, or that there are
millions of converts.
QUOTE
To
add insult to the injury God chooses a language that is impossible to
translate in any language and therefore we can’t even see the beauty of
his work in translation. Is this my fault for being born a non Arab?
Certainly not! God made me a non-Arab and thus deprived me of seeing the
beauty of his word and now he wants to burn me for eternity for failing to
see what he deprived me of seeing. What kind of justice is that? It is
like I tell you something in a language that you do not understand and
then punish you for not understanding what I told you. This is just
absurd.
No, the argument is absurd, as all revelations were sent down in their own
respective languages. As a non Muslim you have the opportunity to learn
about Islam via DVDs, cassettes, books, articles, and this is very forum,
and you have absolutely no right to complain, because the tafseer is out
there, in english, giving you the meaning of the Quran. Your basing your
argument on bieng someone who walks into a bookstore to get the book- and
Islam was spreading and being accepted before this ever happened, so this
indicates just how weak your argument happens to be.
QUOTE
The
next problem with that challenge is that it does not seem to be a sincere
challenge. Look what the Quran says right after it issues that challenge:
But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose
fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
Qur'an 2.24
This is like someone saying show me a woman as pretty as my wife and if
you cannot – and of a surety you cannot –then I will shoot you.
With that kind of clause who dares even to come forth?
The verse is saying that to the person who will never be able to make a
verse like that of the Quran, and you can not, fear God because this is a
sign from God.
Again, you say you are well grounded in Islam but yet you do self
interpretation of verses? In order to udnerstand the Quran you need to
look at the events surrounding the revelation of each verse.
And you say you were looking at both sides?
QUOTE
We
recall Saddam Hussein had “elections” where 99.98% of the population
voted for him. Did all the Iraqis love him? Of course not! The elections
were held open. The question was: Do you want Saddam? Yes or No? If you
responded no then you could be killed. This Challenge of the Quran is very
much similar to Saddam’s elections.
no it is not, because this is referring to fear of the hereafter- not
being killed for attempting to a verse like that of the Quran.
QUOTE
However,
there are some Arab-speaking non Muslims who say the Quran fails in
grammar and aesthetic and they have produced a few Suras to meet this
challenge which is in comparison better than the Suras of the Quran (not
my opinion, but the opinion of Arab ex-Muslims). Please take a look and
tell me why you think the Suras of the Quran are superior to these. http://suralikeit.com/
Bad grammatically? Foos-ha Arabic, the Arabic of the Quran, is the very
foundation for what these people were taught in the first place, and they
most likely speak MSA Arabic which is an inferior dialect based off
of foos-ha, and what is more interesting is that not a single grammatical
error is to be found in the Quran, and if there is, I would love for you
to point the out- but you havent. you instead sent me to a website which
has a few small surahs which read like everyday Arabic poetry rather than
the Quran, and its just laughable. I bet you thought that was going to be
a big point as well, to refute the Muslims here. Ive yet to see you
actually birng up valid points here, even from this vast amount of
information you have typed (which I wont be addressing).
hint: being a non Arabic speaker on an Islamic forum,I suggest you dont
try to say the Quran is inferior to what you just posted. Even when I am
reading it in English I can tell the difference, and its funny because i
can look at it and see that a lot of work was put into it.
Also it is very clear and obvious that you have not looked at the
"other side", and from your toen that you did not come here to
be objective but instead to try and "prove" islam as being
false, with incredibly broad topics and points which have a very small
amount of thought behind them.
--------------------
{"And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what
your hands have earned. And He pardons much."} [Ash-Shooraa, 30]
Ya kaffireen, Allahu mawlana wa lah mawla lakum.
So the westerners hate their governments and distances themselves
from the government whenever it does something wrong, and says theyre free
from all blame even though they voted for the people power who have
already outlined what their foreign policies will be in their platforms in
the first place. keep in mind, the banner of the west is "our
governments represent us". So, even with this, they attempt to say to
other "hey, accept democracy" when they cant even accept it
themselves, and openly show that mankind can not handle the responsibility
of its own self rule.
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas
or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized
violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never
do." --Samuel P. Huntington
Group: Members Posts: 805 Joined: 13-July 04 From: jazeerat al arabiyya insha'allah, laaken
Amreeka :\ Member No.: 61 Gender: Male Religion: Islam
QUOTE
Give
me one example that no one can refute.
Refutation of Secularism? Darwinism? Atheism? Buddhism? Christianity?
Again, you need to be more specific, because you see the nature of God as
being something completely alien to the Islamic belief, and you show
enmity to any belief posted here, so I would like to know if there is any
system which you want us to refute, because remember also you have
come here as a guest. The atheists think their belief is true and
irrefutable, and yet produce no evidences to show their position, nor can
they.
So basically I am asking you is what your belief is in an attempt to
refute it. This is more logical, as no ones belief system is entirely
objective, and inherently if you hodl a view you are intolerant of other
views (otherwise you run into a logical fallacy).
--------------------
{"And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what
your hands have earned. And He pardons much."} [Ash-Shooraa, 30]
Ya kaffireen, Allahu mawlana wa lah mawla lakum.
So the westerners hate their governments and distances themselves
from the government whenever it does something wrong, and says theyre free
from all blame even though they voted for the people power who have
already outlined what their foreign policies will be in their platforms in
the first place. keep in mind, the banner of the west is "our
governments represent us". So, even with this, they attempt to say to
other "hey, accept democracy" when they cant even accept it
themselves, and openly show that mankind can not handle the responsibility
of its own self rule.
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas
or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized
violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never
do." --Samuel P. Huntington
Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: Yesterday, 06:11 AM Member No.: 258 Gender: Male Religion: Kufr
QUOTE
so
implying we are simply brainwashed people
I already explained this. My job is to ask questions based on assumptions
that may be totally fictitious. Your job is to demonstrate that all my
assumptions are false. I also made the example of a cop investigating
someone accused of a crime. It is the cop’s responsibility to ask all
sorts of questions. It does not mean he is condemning the accused. But he
has to ask those questions to find out the truth. If the accused is
innocent, he will have no problem responding, but if he is guilty then he
will start fidgeting and losing his temper which is a giveaway.
QUOTE
What
do you mean by boring exactly? How it sounds? i dont see the poitn you are
atemptign to make here, at all.
What do you mean by “perfect” and “beautiful”? Your estimation of
the Quran is just as subjective as mine. You find the Quran a superb book
of guidance and literature whereas I fail to see such think and read it
only out of academic curiosity but with quite an effort. I am not
presenting the dullness of the Quran as a matter of fact. It could very
well be the shortcoming of the translators. I enjoy reading Dante in
Italian for example but not its translation in English. The point I am
making is that the claims that the Quran is beautiful or boring are both
subjective and hence they are not valid arguments to prove or disprove the
truth of Islam.
You claim that the Quran in Arabic is divine. That is your opinion. I have
heard from people who speak Arabic, especially from those who grew up as
Muslims and left it that is not. If I have to believe either one of you I
am failing my academic integrity. Therefore even though you may be right,
since I can’t verify it personally I reserve judgment. In other words
the beauty of the Quran for me is no proof. I am not denying that this
could be true. But since I can’t verify such claim I simply disregard
it, especially because it is not universally upheld but it is highly
controversial. Quran claims that it is a clear book. If that claim holds
water, I have to be persuaded of the divine origin of that book and then I
may invest time learning Arabic to savor its beauty as you do. For now let
us concentrate on claims that I can verify without needing to learn
Arabic.
QUOTE
Seeign
as how the Quran was revealed in arabic and has stayed in Arabic to
prevent corruption, you point is completely moot to begin with. Mankind
attemtps to make translation, teh Quran is purely word of God. this is
like saying it is unfair that Jesus spoke Aramaic and that Moses spoke
Hebrew
I am neither defending Judaism nor Christianity, however as much as I know
neither the Jews nor the Christians claim that the translations of their
holy books do not convey the real message. Muslims are the only people who
claim the Quran cannot be translated. We all know in translations the
flavor is lost. But the Quran claims to be a book of guidance and not of
poetry. It pretends to be a prescription for living. I can’t see why
translating any book of guidance or recipe should be impossible.
QUOTE
Whats
interesting is that, i could cargue that we are being unfair to non french
speakers or spainish speakers, because we arent saying this in spanish or
french.
You missed the point. Whatever we discuss here is insubstantial to French
and the Spaniards. You and I are not gods. The Quran claims to be the word
of God and failing to see its message is said to condemn one to eternal
burning and gruesome tortures that will never end. It is fair to ask why
God failed to reveal such an important message in a language that we all
can understand, savor its beauty and at once embrace it.
QUOTE
No,
you go to hell because of kufr and shirk,
But that is the point I made. The reason I am in shirk is because in all
sincerity I see no proof to accept Islam as a true religion. When I tell
this to Muslims they say it is because I don’t speak Arabic to see the
beauty of the Quran. So my point is very much valid. Although it is shirk
that will send people like me to hell, the cause of shirk is something
beyond my control. It has to do with the fact that Quran is written in a
language alien to me and in a language that can’t be translated
properly. Now whose fault is that? Don’t you see God has played
favoritism in such an important matter? You compare the Quran to the
constitution of America being unfair to people of other languages residing
in USA. But the comparison is not correct. The Constitution can be
translated in any language and even if you fail to understand it, your
rights as a citizen are protected and you’ll not be punished. This is
not the case with the Quran, which claims if anyone does not understand it
or does not agree with it he must be killed or subdues and will go to hell
to burn in a huge oven year after year, century after century, for
billions, trillions, zillions of years and more. This does not make sense
to me. Does it to you?
QUOTE
Arabs
are a minority in the Muslim world, as well as on this very forum, and
that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, or that there are
millions of converts.
The fact that a lot of people find Islam attractive is not a proof per se.
As Bertrand Russell said: “The fact that an opinion has been widely held
is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of
the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more
likely to be foolish than sensible.”
If Islam is true, its truth must shine independent of the fact that people
believe in it or not. Up until 15th century the whole mankind used to
think that the Earth is flat and the Sun and the stars revolve around it.
Despite this, this view was wrong. Truth cannot be determined by the
consensus of the majority.
This is called argumentum ad populum and it is a logical fallacy. A false
idea does not become true as more people believe in it.
Furthermore, Islam is not the fastest growing religion. Falun Gong that
started in 1992 and by 1998 had over 100 million new followers is the
fastest growing religion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong
QUOTE
No,
the argument is absurd, as all revelations were sent down in their own
respective languages.
No other revelation claims that its books cannot be translated properly.
We already discussed this.
QUOTE
As
a non Muslim you have the opportunity to learn about Islam via DVDs,
cassettes, books, articles, and this is very forum, and you have
absolutely no right to complain, because the tafseer is out there, in
english, giving you the meaning of the Quran.
I read a lot and now I need to discuss what I learned and present what to
me seems incongruent. But this does not mean I will have to accept like a
sheep whatever you say and only ask easy questions. I am going to ask
questions that may be tough but they are nonetheless valid questions. It
is not arrogance to speak out your mind, present your objections and wait
to see what kind of response you get. Is it possible that my impression of
Islam is entirely wrong? Of course it is. If I were sure that I had find
the truth I would not need to present my views and let them be challenged.
I would have gone ahead and written my book without caring what the other
side may have to say.
I want to write a book that challenges the mind not just a rehash of what
is already in the market. To create something challenging you must be
truthful, first to yourself and then to your readers. You can’t be
truthful if you have not even heard the whole story. The whole story means
listening to both sides and defying their views.
QUOTE
In
order to udnerstand the Quran you need to look at the events surrounding
the revelation of each verse.
On this point I fully agree. We will discuss the sha’ne Nozzol of the
verses if there is any disagreement on their meaning.
I compared the Challenge of the Quran to Saddam’s elections and you
wrote:
QUOTE
no
it is not, because this is referring to fear of the hereafter- not being
killed for attempting to a verse like that of the Quran.
Fear is fear. Threat is threat. But tell me is anyone allowed to accept
the challenge of the Quran in an Islamic country? Won’t he be killed as
soon as he says, “Hey I have written something as good and the Quran”?
QUOTE
and
what is more interesting is that not a single grammatical error is to be
found in the Quran and if there is, I would love for you to point the out-
but you havent.
Well since this is beyond my expertise, I leave this point uncontested.
However just to make you see that it is a controversial view I let you see
this link.
you
instead sent me to a website which has a few small surahs which read like
everyday Arabic poetry rather than the Quran, and its just laughable. I
bet you thought that was going to be a big point as well, to refute the
Muslims here.
No, those fake suras do not refute the Quran but they only prove that the
verses of the Quran can be imitated and people can produce similar verses.
QUOTE
As
a non Muslim you have the opportunity to learn about Islam via DVDs,
cassettes, books, articles, and this is very forum, and you have
absolutely no right to complain, because the tafseer is out there, in
english, giving you the meaning of the Quran.
Actually I did not come here to prove to you that Islam is false. I came
here to test the strength of the arguments that Muslims present in defense
of their faith. If this were a soccer game, I want to play goalie. You
throw the balls at me and I try to repel them. I want to gauge your
strength not your weakness. If you want me to attack Islam, that would be
for another time and another place. But this is not the reason I am here.
I want you to throw all your balls at me so I can see what really Muslims
have and why they are so convinced of their faith. What is it that makes
them so disrespectful of life including the lives of children? Why they
rejoice when other people die? As we established above and several posters
said it, it is because this is what Islam is all about and since Islam is
the true religion then all the killings and murders of innocent people is
justifiable.
Well I have to say that I buy this logic. It sounds logical. If Islam is
truly a religion of God and if it is really God who wants Muslims to
massacre innocent people including hundreds of children, who am I to
argue? God wants his good followers to become terrorists and instill
terror in the heart of those who do not believe in him. He wants his good
believers to murder innocent people and rejoice seeing their pain and
suffering. If this is what God wants, who am I to argue? The question is,
does really God want such thing? Was really Muhammad a messenger of God?
What if he was not? Then imagine all this bloodshed is for nothing.
Imagine going to the other world after committing a mass suicide killing
hundreds or thousands of people and then finding out that God had never
told you to do such thing, that Muhammad was not a prophet of God that he
was a liar! This would be disastrous. Wouldn’t it? So this probing is
important. It is important for me and I hope also for you. We have to come
to the bottom of it. May be I am missing something. May be you guys are
right and I should also convert to Islam and start killing the small
children in the kindergarten cross the road where I live. One of us is
completely misguided. May be it is me. So I want you to prove it to me
that Muhammad was indeed a messenger of God and not a liar.
Abu
Yusuf] u are allowed to ask us questions about islam.
created
the Quran, then how did he do this as an illiterate?