Terrorism in Israel/Palestine conflict
From: A Freethinker
Date: 27 Apr 2002
Time: 11:22:38
Comments
ROY: I don't think that massacre done by Israel
on Palestine people is just accidental or a side-effect of self-defensive
operation. It is a systematic persecution, IMO. How come a genuine
humanist can forget that Ariel Sharon, Amos Yaron and other Israelis were
directly responsible for the massacres, killings, rapes and disappearance
of civilian population that took place in Beirut from Thursday 16 to
Saturday 18 September 1982 in the region of the camps of Sabra and Shatila?
In that particularly intensive shelling event against Beirut, it caused at
least 18,000 deaths and 30,000 injuries, and mostly among civilians.
FREETHINKER: Nobody has forgotten Ariel Sharon's culpability in the
massacre at Sabra and Shatila, but it seems you sir have forgotten the
many hijackings and other acts of terror planned and executed by Yasser
Arafat (including the murder of the US Ambassador to Sudan). Your
standards for justice are hypocritically one-sided. Additionally, you have
wildly inflated the number of casualties at Sabra and Shatila. There were
roughly 700 Palestinians killed in the massacre, the overwhelming majority
of them men. It was indeed tragic, and Sharon bears partial
responsibility: though no Israelis participated, they turned a blind eye
to the Phalangist atrocities. I can freely admit that Sharon has blood on
his hands, but you hypocritically refuse to hold Arafat responsible for
his crimes.
ROY: I support the establishment of the
independent State of Palestine in the same way I support the freedom for
Bangladesh in 1971. Some writers in this forum are trying to say that as
Israel supported the struggle of freedom of Bangladesh in 1971 (unlike the
Arab world), so we Bengalee should have to accept the massacre done by
Israelis, otherwise we would become an ungrateful nation! It's indeed a
logical fallacy. Yes, India and Israel both has supported us in 1971, but
that does not mean they got ultimate legalization of what they are doing
now on the people of Palestine and Kashmir respectively. I never
considered self determination is a sin, no matter whether the demand comes
from oppressed Bangalees, Palestinis, Kashmiris or even Chakmas. I will
always be in the side of oppressed people for obvious reasons, no matter
the religion in which they are born or what ideology the hold. We are
honored and really grateful to the Indians because they showed a great
respect for our self-determination in 71, but I expect that similar view
they should hold for every country and nation and specially for their own
people. Calling their own people as "terrorists" or
"separatist" and engaging military power to stop them will not
solve the issue in the long run, anyway.
FREETHINKER: I too am a supporter of an independent Palestinian state.
I too support the rights of all people to self-determination. But why
can't the Kashmiris, for example, operate within the confines of Indian
Democracy? Why can't they elect a state government that reflects their
outlook and lobbies for their interests in New Dehli? Why must they engage
in violence? Why must they be granted outright independence? Why is the
Muslim allowed to govern the non-Muslim, but will not allow the non-Muslim
to govern him?The people of the Southern Sudan have been waging a tragic
struggle for self-determination for 20 years now. Unlike the people of
Kashmir, they have been brutalized in the worst way: over 2 million
killed...the majority of them starved in man-made famine. They have
suffered the horrific indignities of becoming ensnaired in a revival of
the Muslim slave-trade (in which their women have been raped en mass as
standard operating proceedure), and had their villages, live-stock,
schools, hospitals and food-distribution centers destroyed in both ground
and air attacks. But you've never said a word about the Southern Sudanese
Mr Roy. Could it possibly be because they are non-Muslims and therefore
their plight doesn't concern you in the least?
ROY: I would like to point out that some writers
are regularly mentioning that Palestinians are suicide bombing on innocent
women and children because of their childhood brainwashing and the hatreds
implanted into the minds of all Muslims to hate Jews, which is not 100%
true. I will clarify the point later more elaborately, but now please
concentrate on Ariel Sharon's famous quote -
"I don't know something called International
Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian Child will be born in
this area. The Palestinian Woman and Child is more dangerous than the Man,
Because the Palestinian Child existence refers that Generations will go
on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli
Civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him
suffer before killing him. With One hit I've killed 750 Palestinians ( in
Rafah, 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic Girls as
The Palestinian Woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to
her and Nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they
shall do." - Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham,
1956
FREETHINKER: I have no way of knowing whether the above quote is true
or if it is a fabrication of Islamist propagandists. For the sake of
argument, let us presume Sharon indeed made this statement 46 years ago.
His words are reprehensible... indefensible! But what about the countless
examples of Arafat and his cohorts referring to Jews as swine? What about
the Saudi cleric who just yesterday advocated the enslavement of Jewish
women? Once again, your standards are hypocritically one-sided.
ROY: The above quote reveals that massage of
hatred is not restricted for brainwashed Palestinians, only. Israelis who
are considered to be highly educated through humanistic values, are also
not exceptions. Israeli schoolbooks are regularly promoting hatred toward
Palestinians. Those school textbooks as well as children's storybooks,
according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and
Arabs as 'murderers', 'rioters', 'suspicious', and generally backward and
unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of
Palestinians and Arabs are the rule, rather than the exception, in Israeli
schoolbooks (http://www.arabia.com/news/article/english/0,11827,186070,00.html).
So why blame only Palestinians! Israelis are not dove-like angel either
specially in the game of spreading hatred!
FREETHINKER: You have conveniently failed to mention that after the
Oslo accords, Israeli textbooks were changed to reflect the new reality.
In Palestine, the opposite occurred: the Palestinians now had the right to
pursue their own educational paradigm and they chose to issue textbooks
demonizing Israelis and not recognizing the state of Israel.
ROY: We are aware of suicide bombing events of
Palestinians. But I don't consider suicide bombing is a "CAUSE"
- it is just an effect. The desperate legitimate struggle of the
Palestinians to free themselves from the yoke of Israeli oppression over
the last 54 years has been dealt a severe blown with the latest brutal
massacre in Jenin. The world recently watched in horror as the Israelis
invaded the occupied territories and indulged in mass slaughter. The
anguished cries of the innocent men, women and children failed to arouse
the international community to assist the victims. I just didn't find
legalizing Israeli act just calling the Palestinians as
"terrorists". Bangladeshi guerillas also demolished pools,
culverts, bridges and attacked Bihari Colonies in 1971. Even Quader
Siddiki himself killed many unarmed Biharis and razakars even after the
victory day of 71. So you cannot tell that our mukti-bahini never killed
an innocent or unarmed people. When the entire nation is at war, you
cannot expect to follow a Gandhian rule of non-violence always.
FREETHINKER: The right to self-defense does not include the willful
slaughter of women and children...except within the convoluted logic of
mass murderers and their apologists like you, Mr Roy. You mention Jenin,
as if the events there are reason enough to justify suicide bombings. Let
me remind you that Israel was being inundated with suicide bombings in the
weeks leading up to the incursion. Jenin was untouched then, but Israelis
(and their body parts) were strewn all over the streets of Tel Aviv,
Haifa, Jerusalem and Netanya. You were conspicuously silent then Mr Roy.
Your conscience wasn't aroused, your sensibilities were not outraged.
Could it be again, because the victims were non-Muslim?
ROY: Even in British period Mastarda Shurjo-sen,
Khudiraam, Pritilata sacrificed their lives forming suicide squad. If they
are freedom fighters, why not the Palestinians ?
FREETHINKER: I don't know anything about the above group, but I'll
venture to bet they targeted British troops with their bombs, and not
women, children and the elderly.
ROY: I would like to quote A plea from
Palestinian Mother for you all -
"Killing oneself for any cause, in my point
of view is not justified. But we understand that when a person sees no
future for himself/herself, lives in the worst conditions at refugee camps
in his own country, is threatened at all times, has to work as a laborer
on his own land for his occupier -- while someone coming from Poland or
Russia or the USA or elsewhere enjoys life in his native country, having
all the rights he lacks in HIS land, having access to everything he is
denied... this is slavery in the 20th/21st century.
I've asked about the 16 year old girl who killed
herself with a bomb, and many with her. Do you know what drove her to
this? Have you ever thought why a beautiful young girl would kill herself?
A murderer? Did you know that this girl's father was assassinated? So was
her brother. She was left alone in a country under occupation. She had a
cause. Dying as a martyr was the answer, in her point of view. The notion
of better die on our feet than live on our knees is a strong one in all
viewpoints in our part of the world."
FREETHINKER: The Christian people of East Timor were occupied for 23
years by Indonesia. THey suffered 100,000 killed in that time.
Palestinians have suffered no more than 5000 killed since their own
occupation began in 67. Why is it Mr Roy, that the Timorese never resorted
to suicide bombings, even though their occupation was 20 times as bloody
as the Palestinians? The answer is simple: their culture does not sanctify
the murder of innocents. The children of Palestine who are blowing
themselves up and purposefully killing non-combatants are not doing so out
of desperation: there are children in Africa living in much worse squalor.
No Sir Mr Roy, it is not hopelessness and desperation that drives them to
do what they do. Rather, it is a culture of hatred...created and fostered
by their parents, teachers and leaders...that tells them they will be
honored by their entire society, that they will have their image posted on
the walls of their cities, that they they will become saints qualified for
eternal paradise...if they will commit mass murder. The leaders are thus
allowed to pursue terrorism to achieve political objectives...and the
parents can receive a bountiful stipend from Islamic charities. By your
words Mr Roy, you have exposed yourself as a proponent of terrorism. You
justify the murder of innocents just as enthusiastically as any Muslim
religious fanatic. By your logic, the world is destined to descend into a
culture of mayhem, where anyone who perceives themselves as oppressed will
be justified in the mass murder of innocent men, women and children. No
sir Mr Roy, some things are morally wrong and no amount of equivocation
and rationalization can make them right.
ROY: Ariel Sharon committed crime. There are some
specific Complaint Against Ariel Sharon for his involvement in the
massacres at Sabra and Shatila. His act should not and should never go
unpunished.
FREETHINKER: If Ariel Sharon was culpable in the massacre at Shatila
and Sabra, I agree he should be held to account. In the same spirit,
shouldn't Arafat be held accountable for his hijackings and the murder of
the US Ambassador to Khartoum?
Note: Although Ali Sina has also used the nom de
plume "afreethinker" in the past, "FREETHINKER" in
this debate is someone else.
"The Rabin/Peres government
offered their hand of friendship to the Palestinians back in the early
90's. The Palestinian response was a suicide bombing campaign in '96 that
slaughtered Israelis, discredited peace and ushered into power Netenyahu
and Likud. The Barak government was prepared to turn over 97% of the West
Bank and all of Gaza in 2000. The Palestinian response was rejection at
the negotiating table and another round of suicide bombings. Again, the
party of peace (Labor) was discredited, and now Sharon is in power. When
are intelligent people going to comprehend that Palestinians do not want
peace? Should Israel ever negotiate a withdrawal from ALL of the West
Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, anyone who thinks that the suicide bombings
and other acts of violence will cease is incredibly naive. There may be a
brief period of cessation while the new regime consolidates itself, but no
sooner than this is accomplished... the campaign to destroy Israel will
resume. Victimology is a convoluted game of deception designed to appeal
to the naive. If the Palestinians were willing, peace could be achieved
very, very quickly. But they prefer the shedding of blood and the glory of
martyrdom." - Freethinker
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