Javed Ahmad Ghamidi and Khalid Zaheer vs. Ali Sina

 Part XIV

  February 6, 2007

Dear Dr. Zaheer. I don’t think we both agreed on those new rules that you suggested. As far as I am concerned you can respond anytime you like and your response can be as long as you wish. We are discussing the truth or falsehood of Islam, a religion that is believed by over a billion people and is responsible for their miseries and the suffering of the rest of mankind. This belief is threatening the peace of the world and could cause a major holocaust in which millions, if not billions, could perish. Should we sacrifice the truth with deadlines and by not exposing the whole truth because of the restriction on the number of words we are allowed to use? Who will benefit from this? Let the truth be said, Dr. Zaheer. If that is what you and I care about, we must not restrict ourselves with these rules.  

Dear Dr. Zaheer: Your views, just like your good self, are very worthy. However, you must realize that I have had thousands of exchanges with Muslims and believe me, there is nothing they say that is new to me. The reason I do not have to think about what Muslims write is because I have heard them thousands of times and I have answered them all already. They all use the same fallacies. These were the same mental blocks that I myself had. You do not say anything that I myself did not say during my days of faithfulness and oblivion. I already did my thinking over what you say a decade ago. Also I respond as I read. This saves me time.   

Well, this time I published your entire message first and a day later I am responding to it piece by piece. Do you think in this way you have scored more points and people are going to think you are right? I doubt it. You can present the truth in any shape of form, it will shine always. Let me quote one friend’s comment on what you wrote in the site, since I know you can't access the site.    

“It is the practice in the academic world to dissect and put grouped sentences under microscope. This is to bring greater objectivity in the issues debated. I don’t see how cutting into pieces changes the meaning, unless along the way Ali Sina deceitfully deleted some passages to his advantage. According to my knowledge after following the debate, Dr. Zaheer has not once complained about such an academic crime. That leads me to believe that Ali Sina has published everything in full. Besides, I don’t see how Dr. Zaheer’s response could mean differently if cut into pieces. I think Dr. Zaheer should at least give us an example to prove his point. He owes this to the readers. Or else, this is such a lame excuse.”

I think you are misunderstanding what Jesus said. In Matthew 10:34 Jesus is not advocating violence and war. He is saying that because of their beliefs, the Christians will have their families rise against them and even slay them. In no place in the New Testament you find Jesus advocating violence and hate. Remember that he preached turn the other cheek, forgive the sins of others so thin own sins can be forgiven and let the one who has not committed sin throw the first stone. Advocating hate and violence is not consistent with the whole message of Jesus. On the other hand the Qur'an is full of violence. The message of Muhammad does not become a message of peace and love if he plagiarized a few good words to fool the foolhardy. You can quote any criminal saying wonderful words. This does not transform that criminal into a saint. 

It seems to me that perhaps because of the length of my responses, you did not read what I wrote in response to this point. You accuse me of not mulling enough on your responses when I actually know the answer by heart because I heard these same fallacies a thousand times, and yet you do not even read what I write. Let me repeat what I said before:   

We are not talking about the killing of a murderers but about the killing of those who disagree with Islam. In no civilized society people are put to death for merely disagreeing with the government or with the constitution. People who disagree with the ruling party form their own opposition parties and with immunity and protection of law try to topple the government through legal means provided to them. Anyone can criticize the constitution and even advocate for changing it and or amending it. The objectors of conscience are not put to death. In Islam the apostates and those who criticize Islam are put death. By comparing apples to oranges you are engaging in a logical fallacy.  

If I reduce the size of my responses, will you promise to read them from now on? What is the point of writing if you don’t read what I write and repeat the same thing again?     

Killing those who commit murder is another topic that does not concern our discussion. Here we are talking about the other two categories of people that according to Islam must be killed – those who cause “mischief” and those who are “unworthy of living in this world anymore after they had denied the clearly communicated and understood message of God.”  

I already explained that the world fitnah is translated as mischief, opposition and even persecution. What constitutes “mischief?” Anyone who opposes Islam or criticizes it is deemed to be causing mischief. The other category is people who decide to exercise their freedom of conscience and not believe in Islam.

This is evil. That is why we want to expose and eradicate this evil cult. Humanity has fought for its freedom of thought and we must not give in to a barbaric cult that wants to take our hard earned freedom from us.  

However, the question that I kept asking and you failed to answer is where is that clear proof you are talking about? I asked you many time, to give me one logical proof that Islam is from God. You talked about everything under the sun but did not answer this question. In your last message all you have done is say how bad is my debating habits but avoided the question that I asked you.

Where is the proof that Islam is from God? This is a simple question. Why the answer to it is so hard? Isn’t it because the more you think about it the more you realize that there is no evidence? Up until today, you had not paused to think about this. You are not alone. A billion Muslims, including yours truly had not thought about it. Now you can see for yourself that there is no proof. Muslims believe in Islam merely out of blind faith and because of conditioning. They are not allowed to question it. They simply are forced and brainwashed to believe it. Do you know that the people of North Korea worship Kim Jung Ill. Do you think that that monster is worthy of worship? This is called brainwashing. Stalin did the same. When you disallow any criticism and force your only version under the threat of death, you get brainwashed people. That is what Islam does to people. If people were left to investigate the truth and compare, only the brain dead and the criminals would have been interested in Islam. In America it is mostly the jail inmates who find Islam attractive. There are also good people who are deceived. Most of them leave this cult when they learn the truth and then they join us and become staunch critics of Islam. I hope that now you can see that you have been brainwashed too. All along you believed that there is undeniable proof in Islam. You were so convinced that you accepted this challenge to debate with me and when failed to answer my questions about the evilness and absurdity of the Quran you said, all I have to do is see the evidence that you saw in the Quran and then I will forget about all the rest. So I asked you for that evidence and suddenly you can’t find it. Shouldn’t you leave Islam now? You and Dr. Ghamidi are good men. You don’t belong to this evil cult. Islam is made by Satan to make people hate one another and kill each other. God would never order what Muhammad asked his foolhardy followers to do. He would never had allowed his messenger to behave so despicably the way Muhammad has behaved.  

The questions that I asked were not naïve and your responses were not logical. They were based on faith. People with faith accept anything. The contradiction on intercession is obvious, just as the contradiction in my question number 4 about what happens after we die is obvious. Do we go strait to hell or heaven or we disappear into nothingness to rise on the Day of Judgment? Despite repeating this question several times, so far you have not even acknowledged it. Why? If you had a good response you would have answered it when asked the first time.  That is why I prefer to respond to each argument that my opponent raises. I wish you did the same. I am afraid; you did not make me understand. I doubt you yourself are satisfied with your answer. The errors in the Quran are obvious, except to the believer. Then again, the believers are blind. How can they see those errors?     

You obviously did not read my previous responses. I don’t think I have to repeat. I made my point very clear. For those who missed it, here is the link.

Muslims are performing poorly is an understatement. They are acting barbarously. They are acting like savages and yes Islam has everything to do with it. You yourself say that those who do not believe in Islam after being given the clear proof should be put to death. Apart from the fact that despite my repeated requests to show us that proof you have not yet done it and you know that you can’t because there aint any, how can any civilized person say those who do not accept my version of the truth should be put to death? You are not born evil and are not a bad person naturally but what you have embraced and now defend is evil. Is it civil to kill someone just because he does not find any truth in the unproven and unsubstantiated faith that you have espoused? 

You blame other Muslims. Forget about them. What about yourself? What is the difference between you and Osama Bin Laden? Please explain this to me because I see none. Both of you want to kill those who disagree with Islam, both of you want to spill the blood of those who decide to use their brains and leave Islam. And you criticize and look down at other Muslims? You are mistaken my respected friend, you have become evil when you became a Muslim.  

The tragedy is that you don’t know even what is evil anymore. Killing people for what they say or believe is evil. We are not talking about killing the murderers. I did not shed a tear when Saddam was hanged. But how can we call ourselves civilized and endorse or promote a doctrine that teaches killing those who do not agree with it.  

If this is the standard then I have more rights to kill the Muslims. You have failed to give a single proof about the clarity of Islam, when I have given hundreds of undisputed proofs about its fallacies, errors and absurdities. The very fact that I allow all Muslims to publish their rants in this site and never censor them, even when they insult me, is proof that I am not afraid of what they say. On the other hand you banned this site in Pakistan. If what you say is true, then why not let everyone see this truth? Why don't you publish our debate in your site so everyone can see how you established the superiority of Islam? We both know that you know that Islam is defeated.  

Everyone thinks he has found the truth. This is the fact of life. If we thought our beliefs are false we would not hold unto them. Does this mean everyone should start killing those who disagree with his version of truth? What insanity is this?  

Muslims are performing poor? Are you okay yourself? Should everyone become intolerant like you and then the world will become paradise?  

You did not read my long response or you would not say these things. These are embarrassing statements. They are bellow great scholars such as you two. And you say Islam has nothing to do with the dismal and barbaric way that Muslims think and behave?

Dear Mr. Ghamidi and Dr. Zaheer. Islam is evil. Anyone who embraces this evil cult becomes evil. I only know few good humans who called themselves Muslims. One such person was my grandmother. But the fact is that that blessed soul had no idea how evil is Islam. She died blissfully and in ignorance. Had she known what I know, she would not have remained in this cult one single day, just as my parents now have left Islam. WE are good people. Good people cannot tolerate evil. As we Persians say, the proof of a perfume is in its fragrance. I like that better than its English version that says the proof of the pudding is in eating it. But it conveys the same idea. You advocate killing people for not agreeing with your faith and you call yourself good? Evil is he who evil does. Let me give you the news. You are not good as long as you believe in an evil man and promote his evil cause. You are not good as long as you think people should be put to death for what they believe. God does not need murderers and assassins. You are not doing God’s work. Do not fool yourself. You are have become agents of Satan doing his work. Your thoughts are satanic, your deeds are satanic and you do evil because you have embraced an evil cause. Is this really what you want to do?   

It’s time to wake up my respected friends. It is time that you come to your senses and realize that this road that you have taken will take you to hell, both in this world and in the next. People are waking up everywhere. Good people are leaving Islam and are joining the human race. We are one people, one family called mankind. It is not befitting for us to divide ourselves between “us” and “them” for a stupid ideology that cannot be proven and then start killing one another. What tragedy is greater than this?  What insanity is bigger than this? How much stupidity is enough? How much? You tell me!  

First you said that there are no errors in the Qur'an. I showed you four and you failed to disprove anyone of them and in fact neglected the forth altogether. Then you deny the obvious and call that "naive". Then you said that since you have seen something out of this world in the Qur'an you are willing to close your eyes to all its errors and evilness, which your yourself said you had seen. So I asked you to tell us about that thing you saw that impressed you to this degree that you are willing to forego your humanity and promote killing innocent people. In these last two responses you talked about everything but what you were supposed to talk about. Dr. Ghamidi repeated several times that Muhammad gave undeniable evidence "itmam al hujjat."  I asked you to show us that hujjat. Will you now talk about that? Are you really able to show us that “out of this world” thing that you say you saw in the Qur'an?  

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