Edip Yuksel vs. Ali Sina
Round V
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Dear Edip,
You started your argument by saying I use hadith to
insult Muhammad. Can you please show one instance of that?
In this debate with you, knowing perfectly that you
deny the legitimacy of hadith, I have refrained bringing the hadith as the
evidence of my claim against Muhammad. When I use hadith it is in support
of the verses of the Quran.
I started my debate with you showing that the Quran and Islam cannot be understood without any reference to hadith
and sira.
The proof of that is in this last long response of
yours. Here you went off tangent and instead of answering any of my points
you started copy-pasting from one of your books, giving details of the
life of Muhammad without attempting to counter my claim that the
Quran without haidth cannot be understood and Islam without the biography
of Muhammad is meaningless. Since you completely neglected the topic at
hand and contended yourself with copy-pasting your book, I am inclined to
believe you truly have no answer to the points I raised.
However, despite your claim that the Quran is self-sufficient, you made statements that are not in the Quran.
You wrote:
It was
570 years after Christ when Muhammad was born in
Mecca
. At age 40 he made a declaration that shocked his people. During
the month of Ramadan of 610, he claimed that he was visited by Holy
Revelation (a.k.a. Jibreel or Holy Spirit) delivering him a message
from God. This claim was first kept secret he shared only with
several close friends and relatives. A few years later he publicly
declared his messengership and his opposition to the religious and
political establishment of
Mecca
. An era of revolution and reformation that would change world
history had started.
Muhammad,
a member of a powerful tribe and a successful international
businessman, was not an ordinary citizen of
Mecca
. With his sound judgment and trustworthy personality, he had won
the respect of the theocratic oligarchy. His uncles were the leaders
of one of the prominent tribes and were active in social, political,
economic and religious affairs.
Arabs
living in the Hijaz region were brethren of Jews, and Abraham was
their common forefather.
Mecca
or Bacca was the valley where Abraham had immigrated, after his
exile from
Babylon
. There is only one reference to this important city in the Old
Testament: |
How do you know all these things? This information is
not given in the Quran. It can only be found in the hadith and the Sira. But
you say that your Islam does not have any need for these “garbage” and
the Quran is enough. Then how do you know Muhammad was born in 570 A.D. in
Mecca
and at the age of 40 he made his declaration, etc. etc.?
In this book that you are writing, you are providing
a lot of information about Muhammad, about
Mecca
, about his uncles and you even name his enemies. You know exactly at what
age and in what year Gabriel paid him a visit. You said Abraham was the
legendary ancestor of Jews and Arabs. How do you know that? This
information is only available in the Bible and haidth. But you said hadith
is a load of garbage that would sink a city. Do you accept the Bible?
You talked in detail about the costumes of the Arabs in those days and the
fact that the time of pilgrimage was also used for trading purposes. You
said these occasions were used for cultural and athletic competitions such
as poetry and wrestling and that
Mecca
was the center of economic, political and cultural activities of a vast
land. You even talked about Bilal and the fact that he was saved by
"one of Muhammad's friends" and you rehashed the apocrypha
hadith that Summayyah was the first Muslim martyr. There is a wealth of
information in this book you are writing that is not available in the
Quran. Where did you get that information?
You sneaked into the books of hadith and Sira
didn’t you? You naughty little devil you! You shouldn’t have done that, you
know that. You waddled into that load of garbage to find the goodies for us and save
us from seeing that fetid pile of filth accumulated on top of the
prophet. How nice of you! You are really
the savior of Islam.
Apparently you say something and do something else.
Is that a good thing? So you do not
reject the hadith and Sira entirely. You simply reject the part that does
not suit your agenda. None of these info you are giving away are in the
Quran and you keep telling me the Quran is sufficient? If the Quran is sufficient
why did you have to dig into the garbage of hadith to write your
book?
Why not be honest here? Let us say that you agree
with the part of the hadith that is not embarrassing and incriminating but
when a hadith becomes too scandalous then that is garbage. The fact that Muhammad was born in 570 A.D. is not
embarrassing, so you have no problem with that. But when the
same sources say that he massacred the Bani Qurayza or raped a 9 year old
child then that is all fabrication and garbage. Thank you for teaching us
Islamic honesty.
In round III and IV I raised a series of questions.
You did not even touch them. Here is a list of them:
1-
How can Muhammad’s character be irrelevant to his claim?
How can we be sure that he was not a liar? What if he lied for the same
reason Jim Jones and thousands of other charlatan, impostor cult leaders
lie manipulate and control the foolhardy?
2-
Muhammad made so many bogus claims about being the best of
the creation, and a perfect example to follow. How can we verify these
self adulating claims? And how are we supposed to follow his examples as
Allah asked us to do in the Quran if we are not allowed to read his history
or believe it? You reject his biography in its entirety (except the part
that is not incriminating) so can you tell us how else can we know him to comply with the Quranic injunctions and follow his examples? Or
are you saying those verses where he said follow my example and I
mentioned before are all later day fabrications? Are we supposed to take
those verse and the verse 33:21
that says "Ye have indeed in the Messenger
of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct)"
seriously or not?
3-
I asked you to explain the meaning of Sura 111 and Sura
38:41-44 without referring to hadith, tafseer and Sira, by
merely trying to decipher their meanings from the Quran. Can you do that?
These are just two examples. Most of the Quran is incomprehensible without
hadith and tafseer and I will keep pointing them out as we touch them.
4-
We also talked about the Quran's claim that God transformed
the Jews into apes and swine (5:60) and said “Be ye apes” (2:65,
7:166). These are not metaphors. No scholar has understood them as
metaphors because the texts make it clear that they are not metaphors. Can
you explain to us how this absurdity is possible? How come such an amazing
phenomenon was not recorded in any book prior to Muhammad saying such
thing? How can such a ridiculous statement be compatible with science?
Remember, it was you who said “We will get to
the scientific accuracy… of the Quran”. Explain this please
scientifically.
5-
You claimed Muhammad wrote the Quran with his own hand. I
asked how do you know that. Where is your source? Why should we believe
you when he himself claimed to be illiterate and unable to read. 7:157
, 6:22
6-
You made the claim that ummi does not mean illiterate
but gentile. I quoted the verse 2:78 were Muhammad alludes to the Jews and
calls them ummayoon ْ
أُمِّيُّونَ
because they can’t read their book. What is your response?
7-
We talked about sura 33 and I said this sura is not self
explanatory. I asked you to tell us who are the “confederates”
mentioned in verse 20 and from where they did not withdraw. Explain that
without any reference to hadith or tafseer.
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