|
<< Part
I
Abdur Rafay vs. Ali Sina
The Absurdity of Allah
Part II
2006/09/07
Abdur
Rafay:
| Alright.
So, here is my response, which must be publicly displayed in the debate if
you actually dare face the truth. If you don't issue it, the conclusion is
that you are not for a debate at all and the debates on your main site are
fake and lame. Hence you have no substance:
|
Ali
Sina:
Please spare us the bombast and get to
the point.
A. You wrote:
Suppose you prove the
existence of God, this does not prove that
Muhammad was his
prophet. However, since you seem to have such a big
interest on this
subject, let us start with God.
Before starting to
answer, I would like to clarify that talking about Muhammad (pbuh) being
(or not being) God's prophet needs a logical supposition that there is a
God. It is just like saying "This light is not coming from the
sun" means that the source of the light is not the sun but something
else. However, a debate on "Whether the light is coming from the
sun" needs both the parties to believe that there is a sun. So, from
the statement above, one understands that your website begins with the
assumption that there is a God. If this is true, your website is supposed
to have material against Muhammad only and not against God. If it is not
true, the target of the website must be God only. Because only if there is
a God, does the question whether something Muhammad (pbuh) did was right
or wrong arise. If the aim your site is somewhere in between, where is it?
So your answer to my mail must be based on its relevence to the objective
and not merely on “my interest on this subject" as you wrote above.
Agreed?
|
My objective is not to disprove the
existence of God or talk about Its nature. My goal is to prove that Muhammad was a
lair, an impostor, a charlatan or a psychopath. For the sake of argument
let us agree with whatever is your definition of God. With that assumption I can prove that Muhammad
was not a prophet of the god you are talking about. So this is not about
God but about Muhammad. The question is whether Muhammad was from God or
from Satan. The discussion of God, therefore, is irrelevant. I have not started this
site to convince people to change their faith in God but to combat the
threat of Islam.
I like the way you
protest against an authority. But it is natural... human... yet immature.
Let us first look at the demand of justice. Justice is meant to sustain
peace. Peace, for instance, is effective when NO ONE KILLS ANOTHER. But
once it has been done, justice demands it to be taken back. Since a killed
man cannot be put back to life, the only thing Law can do is punish the
killer. Does it pay back to the one who was killed? No. He's gone and
that's it. Does it pay back to the relatives of the killed one? No. They
have lost him and that's it. Where is the so called justice? What the
justice, therefore, means is mere compensation. Now the compensation that
makes the killed individual and his relatives as happy as they were before
the murder will be the actual justice which, as you know, is impossible on
the face of the earth. However, this is not true in all situations. A
theft for instance CAN BE recompensed by a) returning the stolen goods to
the original owner, b) charging the thief for a monetary compensation of
the trouble he created and c) punishment to warn him of any future crime.
The result is that some
actions can be recompensed while others cannot be, due to the limitations
of human powers. Punishment, as the above example shows, DOES NOT DO
JUSTICE. It only WARNS the criminal and gives a LITTLE SATISFACTION to the
ego (or whatever you may call it) of the victim. Hence, if there is a
compensation that makes the affected as happy as they were before the
crime was committed, there is NO NEED OF A PUNISHMENT for the criminal.
This is to say that if a criminal is FORGIVEN and the affected are still
happy with the compensation, the effect can be called pure justice.
As we noted above that
this perfect compensation is possible in some cases and not in all, and we
see that this is because of the limitations of human power, someone having
unlimited powers can easily do it. Hence God has the authority to forgive
anyone for anything and still do justice with all.
Though it serves as the
answer, yet it must be noted that this answer has come out of my limited
knowledge and logic, while God has much much greater powers and options
that even I (or anyone else) cannot reach.
|
The fact that this answer has come from
your limited logic is quite clear. You simply failed to address the
question.
If you maim me, I will take you to the court to demand justice.
If the judge decides to show his mercy to you and let you go free for any
reason, justice is not served. God as a judge has no right to be
merciful to someone who has wronged another human being without that
person’s consent, otherwise he has failed to do justice to the victim.
How Allah dares to be so unforgiving
of those who simply do not worship him and be so generous and
merciful to those who actually wrong other humans? This is double
standard. He says that he will forgive all sins, including the sin of
genocide but will not forgive the "sin" of associating a partner
to him. Is he nuts? Does this mean that the pains of countless
people are not as important to this narcissist psychopath Allah as
his own pride? Does such an unjust god deserve praise? Of course not! he
deserves our scorn. Only a fool would think Allah is God. Allah, if not
the figment of the sick mind of Muhammad, is Satan.
The truth is that it is not Allah who is so desperate
to be worshiped. This was Muhammad hiding behind Allah that was speaking.
It was this sick man who could not tolerate rejection and could not
forgive anyone saying no to him that was so unforgiving of dissent. Allah
was only a tool for this psychopath. This narcissist could not ask people
to obey him and worship him. No one would have done it. So he used Allah
to get at what he wanted. This is clear as the sun.
Imagine someone kills your entire family and you go
to the court to seek justice. The judge forgives the murderer because he
feels merciful on that day. You cry out in pain that justice has not been
served. The judge then orders your arrest and condemns you to life in
prison with torture because you have questioned his authority. Does such a
judge deserve to occupy his bench? Certainly not! He must be thrown out of
the court and taken to mental hospital. That is what we should do to
Allah. We must kick this sick deity out of his throne and send him to hell
of oblivious where he belongs. But since Allah is only a fairytale,
actually those who believe in him must be sent to mental
hospital.
C. You wrote:
The second question is
about sins committed against God. The Quran
says that Allah will
forgive all sins except the sin of associating
partners to him. (4:48)
This is unjust. No human should be punished
for disbelief. Why?
Because we never agreed to believe in God and
worship him when we
were given life. We are here without our will.
God cannot impose on us
obligations that we never agreed to. This is
like I force you to
come to my house without your consent, then
demand payment from you
for staying in my home and torture you if
you fail to pay. This
is not justice. The Mullahs in Iran did just
that. They imprisoned
and then executed their detractors and made
their families pay for
the food they served them in jail and even
bullets used to kill
them. This is not justice and not befitting of
a real God. Assuming
this world is such a wonderful place to be,
which many disagree, no
one must thank God for being here because we
have been forced to
live in this prison called life. We did not ask
for it and should not
be required to thank anyone for what we did
not want to begin with.
Thanking God should be
an entirely personal matter. Those whose life
is full of blessing and
joy may choose to thank God and those who
don’t want to thank
him should not be punished for it because they
never asked to be born
in the first place. Therefore punishing
people for disbelief is
patent injustice.
Thanking must always be
voluntary. If it becomes obligatory it is no
longer heartfelt. A
despot may enjoy seeing his subjects bow in
front of him, but do
they really love him? Love can never be forced
on people. To say love
me or I will torture you is sick. Is Allah a
psychopath?
What a
self-contradicting statement! On one hand, you admit that YOU WERE NOT
BORN OUT OF YOUR OWN WILL, (hense powerless) and on the other hand you
show your protest against God’s decision of punishing the non-believers
(trying to demonstrate power) --- quite childish. I have something to ask:
|
Since we had no say
in coming to this world and have been forced here by God, it is utter
injustice that he ask us to do things that we never agreed to do in the
first place. This is not difficult to understand. Even with your little
logic you should be able to understand it.
If God gave us freedom he should respect that freedom and not punish us
for disagreeing with him otherwise what freedom is that?
It is like holding someone as hostage and
telling him you are free to go but if you try to leave I will shoot
you in the back. Saddam Hussein used to hold "free" referendums.
The question asked was: "Do you want Saddam to stay?" The Iraqis
were asked to vote "Yes" or "No" in an open ballots.
If they voted No, they would have voted for their death.
Looks like Allah is no better than Saddam
Hussein. This is exactly the kind of freedom Allah
is giving to people. He gives them freedom but if they exercise that
freedom he will burn them in hell. This is psychopathology. Only a fool
can believe in such a sick deity? Of course God is not like that. The
Islamic Allah is the figment of the narcissistic mind of Muhammad. It is
Muhammad talking in the Quran not Allah.
|
Is it by one’s will
to be admitted in a school? Then, in a higher class, when he is given a
low score in a subject, does he say to the school administration, “And
was it me to ask you to give me admission in your school?”
|
This is a non sequitur argument. A child
goes to school by his own (or his parents') decision. As he grows he realizes
that for him to succeed in life he needs the education. To learn and score
well he has to study. This no different from being employed in a
company – to get paid you must work. You can’t expect pay without
working. It is fair to fail a student who does not study and to fire an
employee who does not work. Getting good marks or the paycheck is not a
birthright. One must work for them to deserve them.
The point is that study and work are voluntary. If a child
does not wish to go to school no one is going to punish him. Many kids
drop out of school and that is their choice. Also if you don’t want to work no one is
going to punish you. You choose to be poor and some people prefer that to
working. If you don't study or don't work you deprive yourself of a lot of
privileges but you won't be punished for not working or not studying.
In contrast, we are brought to this
world without our consent and we do not have the option to quit living if
we don't like life. According to Muhammad the punishment for suicide is
hell. Since our coming to this world has not been voluntary,
we are here as hostages. We generally like life, but that is because we
have no other experience. An animal born in captivity does not know what
is freedom. This does not change the fact that he is a captive. This life
is the only existence we know about. How can we know it is good or bad
when there are no other points of comparison? Despite that we know that
life is not easy. It comes with a lot of pains and sorrows.
To add
insult to injury, our hostage taker forces us to thank him and if we
decide not to do it, he will burn us for eternity. Only people with very low intelligence can believe in
such a crazy deity. Assuming that God exists, Allah is not It.
All these asinine concepts show that
Muhammad was a very ignorant and unenlightened person. A crackpot like him
could not have been a messenger of God.
| a) if
YES, it is quite childish (or isn’t it?)
b) if NO, then why
“fight” God who is the most powerful and authoritative and a teacher
or a school administration is nothing as compared to God
c) if you say that our
parents know that it is good for us for our future, I would say God knows
what is good for all the creation for their future because God has created
causes and effects
d) if you say that when
we grow up, we realize why our parents had us admitted in schools, I would
say, when we die, we will know why we were created by God without our
wills (or may be with our wills that we must have forgotten or been made
to forget deliberately, again of our will). This can be explained with the
example of a child who asks for chocolate and his mother doesn’t allow
him some. He thinks he deserves it and his mother has NO RIGHT to stop him
from eating chocolate. That’s why he cries and protests. To his limited
logic, world seems to come to an end (compare it with your fear of the
concept of punishment for eternity). But then he DOES grow up. He DOES in
the world. And he DOES come across new dimensions of thought that he has
NEVER been across earlier. Hence there are dimentions that we are unaware
of and Allah says we will come across them soon. Only then shall we be
able to realize the ultimate truth. Allah says in Attakaathur, “thumma
latara wunna ha ainal yaqeen.” Translation: …then you will see it with
the eye of belief…
So I conclude that what
you proposed was childish. And quite opposite to your claim of the
capacity of a man to be a prophet unto himself, your vision is quite
limited.
|
You are not addressing the question that I
raised and all these silly examples of yours have nothing to do with it.
All you say is that you have no answer and you want me to believe in these
crazy arguments of yours because as you say the answer will be given after
I am dead. I am sorry. That is not good enough for intelligent humans. If
you have no satisfactory answers now, your gobbledygook is no different
from thousands other waffles people believe in all corners of the world.
Only a fool would believe in something illogical trusting that he would find the answer
when he dies. When we die it is too late. What if we die to find out that
this man who told us all these harebrained stories was an impostor and he himself is
burning in hell? What would you do if you die and are sent to hell to
find Muhammad being tortured like a roasted pig over bonfire?
You
may ask why should you be sent to hell. My answer is because you betrayed
the gift of intelligence that God gave you. God gave all of us intelligence
to use so we can unravel Its mysteries and you are not using that gift.
This is in my opinion the greatest sins we humans can commit. Instead of
using your intelligence you choose to follow a criminal liar and fill your
heart with the hatred of mankind. What sin can be bigger than that?
You wanted to debate with me to answer my
charges against Muhammad and prove that Islam is a true religion. If you
did not have answers, why did you insist so much in debating and making
a fool of yourself?
D.
You wrote:
"You made good
reasoning. However you overlooked the fact that the
god of Islam did not
create the world out of love but out of need.
Allah in the Quran
says: “I have only created Jinns and men, that
they may serve Me.”
51:56 Why Allah needs to be served if he is
needless? It is very
clear that Allah is a needy god. In fact his
needs are so intense
that if someone does not serve him he would
punish that person for
eternity in the cruelest way imaginable. This
is the highest form of
abuse. Humans are brought to this world
without their will.
Most of them suffer pains and sorrows most of
their lives and on top
of that they have to thank, worship and serve
the one who is
responsible for their miseries?"
Although the
teaacher-student
example I gave above is enough to answer the childish statement in the
last four lines above, there is one more point you made that god is needy.
I am afraid you fail to
understand the difference between ‘need’ and ‘want’. Even a school
child knows that needs are limited and wants are unlimited. Without the
fulfilment of a need one CANNOT survive while without wants, there is NO
HARM TO SURVIVAL. Now look at this:
1. A poor man is not
powerful or proud or authoritative because he is characterized by needs
and wants with the power to fulfill only a few fundamental needs and no
power to fulfull wants. He IS needy.
2. A middle class man
is somewhat powerful, relatively proud and a bit authoritative because he
has the power to fulfill all the basic needs and may have gained some
power to fulfill some of his wants and has developed more wants. He is not
needy.
3. A rich man is more
powerful, more proud, more authoritative because he has comparatively more
power to fulfill all his needs and many of his wants. He is not needy.
God, however, has no
needs and the power to fulfill all his wants such as creating man and
djins for his service, worship or whatsoever. This is to say that even if
God had not created us, He would be there and hence He is not needy. And
you can see that the concept of neediness (in the worldly sense) was over
in just point number 2 above. Your hypothesis of a needy god is just
baseless and ridiculous.
|
You are going in circles and not addressing the points that I have raised.
It is clear that you have no answers. I asked you a very simple question.
If God is not needy why is he so offended if humans do not worship him to
the extent that he would punish them? The question is simple. If you are
not capable of understanding this simple question why do you want to
debate with me?
If there was only reward for worshipping
and no punishments for not worshipping, then you could have a point. Let
us say a wealthy man offers rewards to anyone who writes essays praising
him. Let us not get into his motivations. He could have a big ego, seeking
self aggrandizement, etc. That is not the point here. The point is that
you do something for him and he rewards you for that. That is fair deal. But if he demands everyone
to praise
him or his henchmen would beat to death those who don’t, then we are dealing
with a very sick and dangerous person. When Allah says that he will never forgive
those who disbelieve in him, it is clear that he is a sick deity. Could it
be that Allah is actually Satan? Only Satan can have such a gigantic
ego and be so ruthless. Certainly these qualities are not befitting for
the maker of this universe.
|
You wrote:
Justice dictates that
punishment should be proportionate to the
offence. It is not
justice to torture a person for life for stealing
an apple. Assuming that
disbelief is a crime, which is absurd, why
should such a trivial
offence be punished in such a sever way? Why
is Allah hurt so much
if we do not worship him to the extent that he
would heartlessly burn
us in such a sadistic way for eternity? This
punishment outweighs
the crime infinitely. How can we call such a
sadistic deity just?
Quite ridiculous again.
You say “Justice dictates that punishment should be proportionate to the
offence.” If you answer my following questions PROPORTIONATELY, I shall
admit you have some substance:
|
You
have consistently failed to answer the questions that I raised and all you
can say is “ridiculous”. That does not give you an edge. It only shows
you are not an intellectual and I made a mistake in my assessment of you.
|
My question: What is a
proportionate punishment? How do you measure offence? What is the unit of
these measurements? Is it something like ‘utils’ to measure utility?
How do you make sure that one of the punishments given to a thief who has
consumed the stolen goods worth 1 million dollars in America or in Saudi
Arabia or in Libya is proportionate? Or one is light and the other is
heavy? Is it just based on the agreement that a majority has reached? What
if the whole majority is making injustice with the poor individual theif
who my have some obligation under which he committed the theft?
|
This has nothing to do with my point. Let
us say the punishment for murder is one day in hell or one million years
in hell. That is not what I am talking about. I am trying to show the
irrationality of the belief that God can be merciful and just at the same
time. Let us say the punishment of murder is ten units of torture. Why ten
units? Because God has decided this is the just measure of punishment for
this crime. Does he have the right to give discounts to some people
because he feels merciful towards them? No, he has no such rights because
I am the victim and I demand that justice be done fully. Only I can
forgive my killer. If God is going to forgive my killer, he is doing
injustice to me. Imagine a man kills your son and the judge decides to be
merciful and sets him free or gives him very light sentence. Won’t you
feel betrayed and wronged?
Justice means getting fair trial and fair retribution. How
can God forgive my murderer and not forgive someone who does not believe
in him? This is sick.
How,
finally, do you measure the BIGNESS of a crime? Especially the sins made
against God? For instance, how big is the sin of disbelief? If you say
that the severity of a crime is determined by its effect, can you tell me
exactly what the effect of disbelief is? How many people does it affect?
What are the consequences of spreading disbelief?
|
That is a question that you should answer
not me. In my opinion disbelief does not harm anyone. It does not affect
other humans and it does not affect God. The fact that it does not affect
other humans is clear. If you say that it affects God then you are
admitting that God is a petty and miserable god. A god that is affected by the
belief and disbelief of humans is not worthy of praise. He is a sick, needy and worthless god.
|
Also, do you know what
eternity is? I bet not. Because a human being even doesn’t know what the
beginning of time is, what to talk of eternity. A human mind is not
capable of circumscribing infinity. It’s again like a child trying to
play with an electrical appliance and an elder warning him of the risk.
|
This has nothing to do with our
discussion.
|
You wrote:
If there are no other
gods but Allah why is he so desperate and
jealous? I can be
jealous if my wife looks at men better looking
than me. This would be
sick but understandable. However if we live
in an island where
there are no men at all, and still I warn my wife
that if she looks at
other men I will beat her and punish her I
should be sent to a
mental hospital at once. How can Allah be
jealous of gods that do
not exist? Is Allah insane? No, the answer
is that Muhammad was
insane. It is a tragedy that a billion people
worship the figment of
the imagination of a mentally deranged man.
Your example of your
lady wife above is WRONG. I bet you would definitely scold and threat her
if in such an island she tries to develop sexual relationship with trees,
stones, your gatepost and your puppy. Won’t you say that it’s only you
who is her husband and not the things she is trying to make out with? Now
look at your text above and decide who is insane?
|
You fail to grasp what I say. My question is
why is Allah so jealous if humans worship gods that do not exist? If my
cat meows to the refrigerator because he thinks it is the refrigerator
that feeds him and not me I will
not punish him. A deity that will not forgive those who pray to imaginary
gods is an insane god. Let us say a person likes to worship a stone (Actually
Muslims do worship a stone) why this should be so offensive to God? Why he
should burn people who want to worship trees, stones or animals? Does he
feel jealous? Does he feel threatened?
Compare
this sadistic attitude of Allah to what Krishna said. According to
the Bhagavad-Gita, the god Krishna claims that it does not matter which
god human beings worship; it is Krishna who answers their prayer.
I am not convinced that prayers are anything more
than powerful placebos. However, rationally speaking, I can see the beauty
of this Hindu belief. Krishna sounds like a real God of compassion and
love while Allah sounds like a psychopath. Krishna is a self assured god
who cares about his creation and responds to their needs, even if they do
not know him. Allah on the other hand is a narcissist who is only concerned
about his own gigantic ego. He is ruthless and unforgiving of those who
ignore him.
| You wrote:
I am much kinder to my
cat than God is to me. I feed my cat, take
care of him, take him
to the vet if he gets sick, wash him and groom
him and I never think
of punishing him if he does not pay attention
to me. As a matter of
fact my cat thinks he owns the house and I am
his servant. He owes
his entire existence to me. Without my care and
protection he will not
survive. Despite that he never thanks me and
I still love him.
Yes you do. Because you
have not created it for something you wanted it to do. So this example is
also WRONG.
|
What a load of nonsense! Who said by
virtue that God created us he has the right to torture us? Did he consult
us before creating us? Did we agree to the deal that we would worship him
if he creates us? I have no recollection of agreeing to
such a deal or signing any covenant with my alleged creator. He created
without my will and gave me feelings. He has no right to hurt my feelings
or mistreat me.
|
Here is the right example:
You create a software.
Instead of calculating profit for you, it is producing meaningless digits.
You try to handle it, but it doesn’t seem to work. What do you do? Love
it? Caresse it? Keep it in a directory? Look after it daily and smile at
it???? Or simply delete it and start a new one?
Software has no feelings and do not sense pain. You can destroy a
car, a computer or anything that you create. Of course if you pound at
them year after year with revenge, we would question your sanity.
Nonetheless we humans have feelings and can sense pain. We can’t be
compared to a software program or a piece of machinery.
|
Let us say that God created us for a
purpose and we fail that purpose. Apart from the fact that this shows God
is a sloppy creator because our imperfections are directly the result of
his lack of skills in creating perfect humans, why he just does not return
us to nothingness if he sees we do not serve his purpose?
Why he tortures us in this excruciating way
for eternity? This is stupid. It takes really stupid people to believe in
this BS. If we use just a little bit of logic we can see Muhammad was a
liar and everything he said make no sense.
Assuming
that something is wrong with us and we do not serve our creator's purpose,
all he has to do is discard us. Why this much venom? Why this much vengeance?
Furthermore,
if he is an all knowing god, why he created those whom he knew would disobey
him? If I know a software or a machine that I am making is not going to
work the way I want it to work, I will not make it. If Allah knew the
future why he made those whom he knew would disobey? Isn't this sick to
create disbelievers and then torture them for eternity? All he had
to do was not create those whom he knew would become
disbeliever.
|
No, no… I didn’t
give you a reason to say “is god imperfect in programming us?” That
was just an example I gave you to refute your reasoning above and tell you
what YOU would do if you had created something. This is because no matter
how hard you may try, you cannot enable a computer program to make a
decision on its own. God has the power to do it and hence he has
introduced punishment for disobidience.
|
And you have no problem believing in this
nonsense? That is pathetic? That is why I say religion destroys the brain.
Let us say God created
me. But he does not take
care of me. I am left
in this world to fend for myself. I have faced
calamities that could
have been avoided if God was looking over my
shoulders. I would die
of hunger if I do not earn my own bread. Tens
of thousands of
children die every day of hunger. Where is this
loving god to come to
their rescue? He is nowhere to be found when
we are in need. Our
prayers and supplications are never heard. I am
by all means kinder to
my cat than God is to me. And yet I can love
my cat unconditionally
without wanting him to worship me or thank
me. God is incapable of
loving his creation unconditionally. He put
us in this world
without consulting us. Here we have to face life
with all its
difficulties and pains on our own. He takes away our
loved ones and fills
our hearts with great sorrow. He shatters our
hopes. He sends one
calamity after another and kills innocent people
by thousands and
despite all that he wants us to worship him and
serve him. Why should
we thank such a god? What do we owe him? We
owe him nothing! He
does not deserve our respect. Such a needy,
petulant and abusive
god deserves our scorn. The god of Muhammad is
sick. He is a
psychopath.
The whole statement
above is based on immaturity that I have already refuted. You feel cursed
because you ignored that death is NOT the end of life. This is a separate
point that you may like to discuss later. If a person dying in hunger gets
a hundreds of thousands of times better life than this one, what do you
think God is showing? Ruthlessness or reward?
So, childish again. You
should attempt to speak against what God does to us in this life only if
you know what happens after the death.
|
You have refuted nothing. All you have
proven is that your brain is on religion and as such it is incapable of
rational thought.
The truth is that Allah
is Muhammad’s own alter ego. He is
everything the
narcissist Muhammad wanted to be. He does what he
pleases and he responds
to no authority above him. He wants to be
worshipped, obeyed and
feared. This is the wet dream of all
narcissists. One must
be naïve to believe that the maker of this
universe is this insane
god described by Muhammad. Why would one who
owns this magnificent
universe care if a bunch of evolved apes in
this tiny plant worship
him or not? Can we really hurt the feelings
of the maker of this
vast universe by simply disbelieving in him?
There are many holes in
the concept of god as defined by the
illiterate
self-proclaimed prophet of Arabia.
The audience is here to
decide if I have rightly answered comments like those above already. Yet I
want to add two things here. 1) A narcissist would rather want to pass a
luxurious life and would be able to gather many more greedy individuals
around on the promise of a luxurious life after a luxurious life. Muhammad
(pbuh), on the contrary, spend quite a simple, hard and selfless life.
|
Muhammad became the absolute potentate of Arabia. In Mecca he destroyed the wealth of his wife and when he
escaped to Medina he was poor. In just ten years he owned the wealth of
thousands of people that he raided, murdered or banished. What other proof you
need to agree that he benefited immensely by fooling people? The Christians
can say
Jesus did not benefit materially and was killed for what he
stood for. Muslims can’s say that about Muhammad because he benefited
materially from his claim. He became the absolute rule and filled his
harem with a bevy of young women. It is precisely because of this that we
should question his motives.
|
On
the other hand, an atheist can rightly be called a narcissist, as
according to your definition above in the following words:
He does what he pleases
and he responds to no authority above him. He wants to be
worshipped, obeyed and
feared. This is the wet dream of all narcissists.
|
This is not what atheists do. Atheists
(with the exception of the communists who have their atheistic religion)
are believe in the rule of law, a law that applies to all humans equally.
|
2) Whether Muhammad (pbuh)
is a self-proclaimed prophet is a matter of later concern. Don’t try to
color up your speech using hasty hops. We shall come to it in the next
step, inshaAllah. (Don’t repeat that the main aim of the site is to
target Muhammad (pbuh) only. I have already addressed on this baseless
claim under point A above (top)) |
You failed to say anything worth reading.
I am sorry Abdur Rafay. I thought you are a scholar. Obviously I judged
you too soon. Your responses are neither challenging nor intelligent.
Please post your responses in the forum and continue debating with the
friends there. I am not going to waste the precious time of my readers by
making them read silly arguments. If
you have anything important and ground breaking to say, you can say it in
the forum and people will flock to read your pearls of wisdom.
| If you say that the
actual God is an indefinable and incomprehensible reality, how can you say
what characteristics He does not have? It is quite logical for such a God
to have bestowed some of His qualities to a trivial degree to human beings
that now have become “human qualities” as you call them. Be logical. A
human quality is not supposed to be own by God, rather human beings can be
supposed to be granted some of His qualities. Simple.
|
Obviously this subject is a bit above your
head.
So you did not understand when I said God is a principle and not a thing or a
being and as such It cannot have attributes. Why should I waste my time
debating with someone of your caliber?
|
Let us suppose your
definition of god above suggests that god is FREE from all these
attributes. He must therefore be free of life as well. If it is true, the
most illogical statement that “a non living being created living
beings” is what you just said.
|
My friend, please ask someone to explain
to you what I wrote.
|
If god is a principle, fine. No problem. This principle has
caused life. And thus the principle is alive too.
Otherwise,
this goes against known logic as I said above. This is the point where the
actual debate starts.
|
Dear Abdur Raray, your logic is not the
standard. You don’t know what is logic. You simply did not understand a
word of what I wrote. Principles do not have life. Principles are laws.
This concept seems to be beyond you. Isn't it?
|
We
are unable, rather incapable to understand what God is like. The question
here, is whatever God is, has he initiated communication with us? My
answer here is yes. The proof to this communication is Quraan. I hope here
is where the second phase of this debate starts. As I have already
mentioned that my intention is to reach the ultimate truth and not to
defend Islam (it doesn’t need to be defended), I put forward two things
in the conclusion:
1.
The HE and IT debate is childish. When you can call your cat “he” (who
is an animal) you chose “it” for God (even if He is a Principle
according to you). Remember, on the other hand you call God a supreme
reality. I do agree that Allah is free of gender and the use of “he”
denotes that He is alive and not the gender. “Subhaan Allah i amma
yasifoon.” (Allah is pure of the attributes they suggest for Him)
2. To me, God has
communicated to human beings and the last book of signs He has sent to us
is Quraan.
|
Please go in the forum and debate
there. I have more important things to do than debating with someone with
your limited understanding. Not only you have no understanding of
philosophy and are not familiar with logical language, you have difficulty
understanding simple concepts. Now I see why Doubtless had ignored your
email and had not tagged it for me to see. Obviously he saw your
shallowness when I failed to see it.
|
