Tanveer on Predestination Part
Allah is neither unjust nor biased. His guidance is
for all mankind.
mankind! there hath come to you a direction from your Lord and a healing
for the (diseases) in your hearts,- and for those who believe, a
guidance and a Mercy." 10/57
If you would carefully look the above verse, it is
directed to whole mankind that a direction has come to the whole mankind.
In this, guidance is only for those who believe in it. It is perfect
justice, because Allah has given man full choice for believing or not
believing. See 18/29
"The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let
him who will, reject (it):18/29
Obviously you have difficulty to acknowledge that the Quran
is self contradictory. Your tautological effort does not make it any
clearer. Muhammad at some places declares that the choice to reject Allah
is with man and then in other places he says that it is Allah that places
the seal on the hearts of the people and leads them astray. No amount of
justification and intellectual acrobatics can make this contradiction go
away. There are hundreds of cases like that in the sayings of this prophet
of ignorance that simply do not add up.
the following verse:
” If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its
true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill
Hell with Jinns and men all together." (Q.32.13)
Why Allah did not will to bring every soul
to guidance? Why he would not guide the people and instead would fill the
Hell with them? Take a look at this verse:
” Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites?
Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom
Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out
of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.” (Q.4.88)
Can there be any doubt that it is Allah
who is reacting to the disbelief of the people and throws them out of the
Way instead of assisting them to find it?
It would have been injustice, if Allah would not have given choice for
believing or not believing. But it is not the case. Guidance is meant for
all mankind, no favoritism at all. Now all mankind has given choice
whether to believe in this guidance or not, perfect justice. If they
believe, they will surely get guidance.
You have a very twisted sense of justice my friend. Which is more just?
Guide the people and save them from the fire even if they do not
understand and are rebelious or seal their hearts and then burn them eternally in the
fire? Now in your opinion mankind was given the choice. That is what Quran
claims in some parts of it. However in other parts we see that it is Allah
who deliberately misleads the people. The verse 32:13 is one of them. But
there are verses that are even more explicit. Like the following:
are men whose hearts Allah has sealed….”. (Q.
are the men whom Allah has cursed for He has made them deaf and blinded
their sight.” (Q47.23)
is an admonition: whosoever will, let him take a path to his Lord. But
ye will not, except as Allah wills ... He will admit to his mercy whom
He wills. But the wrongdoers - for them has he prepared a grievous
it be clearer that this? In the above verse it says that whoever will,
let him take a path to his Lord. But immediately adds that such thing
is conditional to the will of Allah. This contradiction is obvious and yet
you refuse to see it.
consider the following verse:
to those who believe not in the Hereafter, We have made their deeds
pleasing in their eyes; and so they wander about in distraction. [27:4]
would Allah make the bad deeds of the people pleasing in their eyes?
Is he trying to deceive them or play tricks on them? If a person
disbelieves shouldn’t a loving god guide him instead and make him see
that he is going astray so haply he comes back to the straight path? This
is sadism Mr. Tanveer. What Muhammad’s Allah does to people is pure
evil. If you study narcissism you’ll see that narcissists are vengeful
and unforgiving. Muhammad molded his Allah after his own narcissistic
self. Muhammad was vengeful and therefore his Allah was vengeful.
Muhammad could not accept rejection and therefore his Allah could not
accept rejection. Muhammad carved his Allah out of his own alter ego. That
is why Allah is so stupid, so demanding, so vengeful, so unforgiving
and so ruthless. See also this verse:
to those who believe not, their pretence seems pleasing, but they are
kept back (thereby) from the path. And those whom Allah leaves to stray,
no one can guide.” [13:33]"
more one reads, the more it becomes clear that Muhammad was insane.
You have quoted “Many are the Jinns and men we have made for
You have not read the full verse. You are very
selective when you quote any reference. You never give the reader the
complete picture. The complete verse is as follows:
"Many are the Jinns and men we have made
for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith
they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay
more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning). "
Dear Tanveer. I did not try to hide anything. This is what I wrote:
says, “Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell” (7.179). Then
it adds that because they are like cattle and do not understand.
Did I fail to show
something important that would have changed the meaning of that verse? I
tried to be brief. These are excuses. You have no answer to my charges
against the mad man of Arabia and you try to divert the discussion to
trivialities. Unless by quoting part of a verse and not all of it the
meaning of that verse is changed, I see no reason for your objection. All
this shows that you have run out of arguments.
If you would carefully look at the verse, men and jinns are not created
for hell, BY DEFAULT. These are those who have hearts wherewith they
understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear
That is what you say. But Quran says: “Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell”.
And if you know a little arabic, you can see that the word which has
wrongly been translated here as hell is JAHANAM, which literally in arabic
know some Arabic and I know that
Jahanam means Hell. Whatever is the origin of this word is irrelevant,
every Muslim knows that Jahanam is Hell.
Now you would appreciate that people who have hearts wherewith they
understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear
not will definitely become stagnant as for as the development of their
faculties are concerned.
What are you trying to say? That the
promised Hell does not exist? Do you know that the subject most discussed
in the Quran is Hell? Take a look at this index and see it for yourself.
Why are you trying to deny the concept of
the Hell that is the pivotal point of the belief in Islam? Are you
embarrassed because it is such a stupid concept?
You have said Quran is not clear. It is crystal clear 5/15, 6/59, 10/61,
11/6, 27/1, 27/75, 34/3; Its verses are clear and illustrated 2/99, . It
is easy to understand, 54/17, 54/22, 54/32, 54/40.
I know that Quran claims to be clear. Quran claims
to be many things including a miracle. What Muhammad said about his book
and himself is irrelevant. We can see for ourselves that there are
many contradictions in the Quran that makes it unclear and it contains so
many errors that the only miracle is the gullibility of the people in
believing in it. Take a look at these contradictory verses of the Quran
and tell me how clear is that book.
Your problem is, you do not ponder. It is like a bad working man
querrelling with his tools.
Could it be possible that this is your problem?
How much you have pondered, for example, over this verse:
drew nigh and the moon did rend asunder.”
you really think that the Moon in Mecca split asunder? Is it possible for
Moon to split and then rejoin? How come such a grandiose event is not
recorded in any book of history of any nation? This must have been the
biggest event seen by any human on this planet. How come nobody recorded
it? Do we have a different moon in Mecca? What do
you make of this childish claim? Have you pondered upon it?
about this one:
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found
it set in a spring of murky water:
Do you think there are special places on Earth that the sun sets and
There are hundreds of foolish statements
such as these in the Quran. Have you ever pondered over them?
You say, do we have any indication that the description of Paradise in
Quran is not literal. Again you have not pondered enough in Quran. See
13/35 and 47/15 again where it is clearly stated that all description of
paradise is not literal. Learn some arabic. In order to learn the real
description of paradise, you my dear will have to die and go into the life
in the hereafter. It is like teaching a primary student, a concept of a
doctrate level. In this world, you and I are like primary students, the
concepts about the things in the hereafter are like those of the doctrate
level. We can only understand by parables and similitudes about the life
hereafter, in the life here.
What part of the Quran is “doctorate level”? This book can only
satisfy the most ignorant of the people. Even at the time of Muhammad, men
of ken and wisdom such as Abu Hakam, (the father of wisdom) that Muhammad
disdainfully called Abu Jahl (the father of ignorance), derided the
stories that Muhammad used to tell to his ignorant and gullible followers.
No I do not understand the “parable and similitude” that Muhammad is
giving. It does not make the concept of afterlife clear. I think that is
misleading. It is darn stupid. You say it is just a parable but when
we read the Quran we do not get any sense that it is just a parable. It is
described in too many details to be just a parable. Then to make a parable
make sense you have to describe the real thing first and only use parables
to elucidate it. Where is the real description of Paradise?
You have quoted: "Thus doth Allah, seal up every heart - of arrogant
and obstinate Transgressors." (4:35).
When would you learn to see the verses carefully.
the hearts of only those are sealed who are arrogant and obstinate
transgressors. If somebody is obstinate then he will not believe however
you would try to convince them. And you know this is all due to his own
self, see 83/14. You become confused when Allah attributes laws to
Himself. This is just to remind people like you that everything that
happens in this world is according to laws made by Him, the laws which are
purely based on justice.
If a person is arrogant and obstinate, he will not understand. That is
clear. What is not clear is why then Allah seals up his heart. What Allah
is doing is malice and he acts out of vengeance. If Allah is the true God he should open the eyes of
the people who are arrogant and obstinate and not seal their hearts. If
you have a child that does not understand, who is rebellious and disobeys
you, what would you do? Would you patiently try to help him to come to his
senses and guide him or would you cast him out of your house and disown
him? Would you torture your own son because he was rebellious and
disobedient to you? Christians believe that they are the children of God
and as a loving father; God is always ready to forgive their sins. Muslims
believe they are the servants of Allah, a master who does not know
forgiveness and would seal their hearts so they never come back, then
torture them, burn them and dismember them. What is more logical? To
accept that God is a vengeful monster as Muhammad depicted him or that Muhammad was
a liar? Don’t you think that the latter make more sense?
You say why Allah does not guide people who transgress. That is because,
Allah has give the initiative to man. That is why man is held accountable
for his actions.
But that is extremely cruel of Allah. He gives to men a religion that goes
against logic and demands absolute obedience. When people doubt because
there are so many absurdities in that religion, he seals their hearths
so they never understand those foolish teachings and then he punishes them
eternally. This scenario does not make sense. It is cruel and ridiculously
Allah has made just laws. An example of these laws is IF-THEN rule.
If man would do this, then that will happen.
For the IF part, the initiative lies with man.
If man fufils IF part, then THEN part will happen according to the laws
made by Allah. Since, all laws are made by Allah, He attribute these laws
to Himself. When He says, He seals hearts, He is actually referreing to
the laws made by HIM, according to which the laws are sealed. This is a
way in which arabic language works. The law is "If you will be
obstinate, your heart will be sealed". An obstinate person's heart is
always sealed. It is a parable. You can verify in your daily life, how an
obstinate person behaves. Now the IF part of the law is in control of man.
If man will cease being obstinate, there will be no seal on his heart.
Can you please tell me how can one cease to be obstinate when Allah has
sealed his heart? This is the catch 22. I was rebellious and God sealed my
heart. Now I can no more be guided because my heart is sealed. Who is to
be blamed here? I made the first mistake. I was young and rebellious. I
committed the great sin of thinking and did not accept blindly all the
stupid things that the messenger of Allah said. I rebelled because my
intellect told me that Moon cannot be split, a man cannot travel on top of
a pony to heavens and meet dead messengers and God, that Earth is not
flat, that the story of embryo told by Muhammad is contrary to science,
that Moon is not above the stars, that women are not men’s property,
that it is not right to beat them or demand obedience from them, that one
should not mistreat anyone for his faith, that Muslims or none Muslims must
have equal rights, and so many other things. This is my sin. Now seeing
that I sinned, and rebelled against the stupid and inhumane teachings of
the Quran, Allah is furious with me and he has sealed my heart. But I want
also to go to paradise and enjoy the orgies that Allah has promised his
chosen ones. However my heart is sealed and I cannot become stupid to
accept the absurdities of the Quran. Whose fault is that? God gave me a
brain to think. I used it and because of that I disbelieve in him. Then
God seeing that I am disbelieving has sealed my heart so I can never
understand his stupid ways and enter his orgiastic paradise. This does not
make sense to me. Does it make sense to you? Is Paradise and abundant sex
reserved for ignorant foolhardy people only? Isn’t it unjust that God give brain
to people and then punish them eternally and so severely for using that brain?
No! This is not just at all! I did not
have any say in my birth. For the lousy seventy or eighty years of life
that I get in this world, I have to believe in the most bizarre, illogical
and stupid things and if I choose to use my brain and reject those things
I will be punished eternally with the severest punishments. Who made this
deal? I never agreed to this contract, or covenant as you call it. Imagine when
you burn a finger. It may take a second and yet the pain is excruciating.
Now imagine keeping your finger on the fire for five minutes. How painful
is that? Imagine that your whole body is burning! That must be truly
painful. Now imagine that you are in that state not for one minute, one
hour, one day, one year or for 1000 yeas but for eternity. Eternity is a long time. My sin
of disbelief is not that big yet my punishment is extremely big. The
punishment must match the crime yet in this case it exceeds it infinitely
more. Which part of that is justice? Even if I Kill someone I should not
be punished eternally with fire because there is no sin that can be as bad
that would require eternal burning. This is sadistic. Allah is pure evil.
He cannot be God. Allah is the figment of Muhammad’s sick mind. He
invented this deity to control you. How can you allow a dead man whose
cadaver is putrefied 1400 years ago and is eaten by worms fool you to this extent? This must be
shamefully embarrassing. How can any intelligent person believe in such an
idiot? The stories of the Quran are foolish. It is time that the Muslims
wake up and put an end to this insanity. Don’t try to explain off and
justify them. It just makes you look miserable and fool. You are not a
fool. You don’t deserve this much humiliation. You are an intelligent
man, don’t become an advocate and an apologist of a stupid man.
Study some concepts of KNOWLEDGE ENGINEERING, the term is used with
reference to making knowledge-based systems in Artificial Intelligence.
Then you will know how IF-THEN rules can be abstracted from a given
A gross mistake that you have made while reading
Quran is that you have taken the english translations as the word of
gospels. Dear Ali, there are many mistakes in the english translations,
even in the ones that you quote in your references. Your problem is that
instead of thinking that translations might be incorrect, you jumped to
conclusion that there is something wrong in Quran.In fact you have been
blindly following the incorrect translations. And ask yourself, there
would not have been a single time when you would have thought, the
translation is incorrect. You should have spent some time to learn
I told you that I read the Quran in Arabic. I used the English translation
to make sure I do not miss anything. There are Arabic words that I did not
know, the English translation make me understand those words. I could have
used an Arabic dictionary, but I found using the English translation right
next to the original verses a much faster way of reading the Quran in
Also this is an old excuse. Muslims always
blame it on the poor translators. There are a score of different English
translations of the Quran. How come none of them is correct? There goes
your claim that the Quran is a clear book. If it is so clear as Muhammad claimed, why all the translators have failed to translate it
properly? Why Allah chose a language that cannot be translated? Are all
Arabic writings untranslatable or is this a problem with Quran only? If
Arabic is a language that cannot be translated then Allah chose a very
wrong language to convey his message to humanity. How can this book be
clear if most of the humanity do not understand it? Allah should have chosen
another language that can be easily translated that would not cause so
I have been through your articles about God. Most of the time in these
articles, you have criticised Gods of other people. You have nowhere
elucidated characteristics of your own God. In fact your God does not have
any characteristics at all... If He has, write to me the characteristics.
Then I shall be able to compare your God with others.
Yes I explained my concept of God. You obviously got tired reading and
I do not believe in a God as a being but I
believe in a principle, a single principle underlying the creation. I have
given extensive explanation about it and if you read those articles you
can become familiar with my views on this subject. And no the Single
Principle does not have any characteristics because it is not a thing; it
is not a being. It is a non-being that is the mother of all beings.
what I believe God is or is not is irrelevant. This site is not about
theocracy and we are not discussing about the nature of God. You may
believe in any god you wish. However what is important is that Allah is
not the God. Allah was the moon god, who was one of the deities of the
pagans, who had a wife and there daughter. Muhammad took this chief god of
the Arab pantheon and projected his idea of God on him. Allah as you know
it is a creation of Muhammad.
Dear Ali, I have seen in the debates with you how you selectively quote
your references. Even the references you quote, you do not seem to read it
carefully. Because most of the time, the answer to your criticism is in
the reference given by yourself. Secondly, you seem to lack a lot in
understanding of arabic language and relie heavily on english translations
which you follow blindly. You may have read Quran in entirety, but you
could not find the way Quran suggests how you can better understand it.
That way is TASREEF. Which means, , in order to clarify an issue, you
should collect all the verses on the same topic and then you will be able
to clarify your point.
That is precisely what I did and in most of my articles I refer to that. I
found a lot of contradictions and other absurdities. The question of predestination is an
example of that. In one place it says that humans have choice and in
another place it says that Allah seals their hearts. No matter how hard you
try to explain
it these two ideas mutually excluding. But the Quran is full of
contradictions. There are so many contradictions that a group of learned
Islamic scholars had to spend years to classify the Quran and determine
which verses abrogate which ones. They called this “science of Nasekh va
Now that you insist that I do not
understand the Quran, I would like to ask you to please translate one
verse of the Quran properly.
What is the correct translation of This
verse? Does it say beat your wives if you fear they disobey you or
I am afraid, I am not finding the debate with you any edifying at all.
Most of your references are erroneous and lack your understanding of the
Of course you don’t find it edifying because you are stuck. But I
believe it is quite edifying and helpful to the readers. It is through
debates such as this that the truth can be manifested.
Within a few days I will respond to your
arguments on inheritance.
Allah did not will to bring every soul to guidance?
Allah did, is that He has given man the book that has guidance in it.
Allah does not force guidance upon anyone. The choice is with man. The
book of Allah is for everyone. Anyone who has a desire, can have access to
His book. Even you have access to this book. The book is for everyone. The
choice to believe is for everyone. Anybody who believes in it, will get
guidance from it. This is the criterion for guidance-the belief. I asked
you to look around and verify this criterion. You yourself are a
proof. You have the book. You do not believe in it. That is why you do not
get guidance from it.
you are standing at a crossroad and ask someone the way to your
destination. He will tell you the way. Now it is up to you whether to go
that way or not. Obviously, if you believe that person, you are more
likely to go along the way he is telling you. You want him to carry
you to your destination. You have to go by yourself after getting
the guidance. Suppose you are not well. Doctor advises you to take a walk.
It is up to you to take a walk or not. You want the doctor to carry you.
Then obviosly, you cannot reap the benefit of the walk. Your health will
not improve. It will only improve if you yourself will do something about
is Allah who is reacting to the disbelief of the people and throws them
out of the Way instead of assisting them to find it?
is how all Allah's laws work. Look around again. If you cannot see, ask
Newton, for every action, there is a reaction. The choice of taking the
action is with man. The reaction will be according to his action. Take a
good action. The reaction will be good. Take a bad action, the reaction will
be bad. You want injustice. You want to do bad actions and want a good
reaction. If world will go according to your way of justice, you need to
change the definition of justice.
Your God seems
to be "EVER FORGIVING AND MERCIFUL". For your God good doers and
evil doers are all equal. Your God will forgive Hitlor and all
others who commited genocides.
You have a
habit of chaging topic when you are short of arguments on the given topic.
In the rest of your mail, you have not talked about predestination. I will
keep on "predestination" at the moment. By the way, I am still
waiting to see the characteristics of your God. How many days will you
need to manufacture characteristics of your God?
You are an intelligent
person and I think you do understand what I am talking about and why Quran
contradicts itself. You keep pretending that you do not understand the
real problem and keep repeating the obvious circumventing what the main
issue of contradiction.
Anyway I think this subject
is explained enough by both of us and I leave it to the readers to make
the final judgment.
for the Characteristic of my god, I told you that it has none, because it
is not a thing or a being. It is the principle underlying the creation. I
have explained them in detail in those articles I gave you to read. But
those are my personal philosophical musings. You do not have to agree with
me. This site is not about theology or philosophy. The objective of this
site is to prove Islam is a lie. You can believe in any God you like. All
I am interested is to show that Allah is not God but the figment of a sick