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Spinoza



Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1401

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I listened to Denis Giron's debate and I thought the argument of 'chance' was rather ridiculous.

Scrape together a few post facto mircles of reinterpretation, ignore the fact that most of the Quran contains complete idiocy and quite a few errors and inconsistencies (which require tremendous amounts of doublethink, blissful ignorence and mental gymnastics to swallow) and claim the divine (!) authorship of that wicked piece of 'literatuur' has been 'proved'.
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Farside



Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 345
Location: The Other Side

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nadir_ahmed to the FFI forum!

This reply has nothing to do with the theme of this thread, but since you are an Islamic expert I might as well ask you a question. Do you know of an online English translation of the Al-Tirmidhi collection? A searchable version would be great! I find great solace in reading about the wisdom and sayings of the final prophet. Send me a pm or post a reply.

P. S. The MSA-USC Hadith Database contains only four collections of Hadith in English -- Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud and Malik's Muwatta. It's amazing that only four collections of the Prophet sayings have become available to English speaking people of the world by the internet. According to http://members.cox.net/arshad/hadithcol.html , there are 24 Major Collections of Hadith!

Kind Regards
From the Farside


Last edited by Farside on Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:49 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Nadir_ahmed



Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I accuse Muhammad of being unfit and unworthy to be a messenger of God.


who cares... yawn....




Quote:
I’ll show that the Quran is not from God but a hodgepodge of nonsense and you can show that it is a miracle.


no, no... Ali, this is not what my challenge to you , you can try
to show your alleged claim of hodgepodge nonsense some other time...


let us commit to specifics here, here is what we are going to debate, as I posted in my challenge:


The topic will be Quran and Modern Science, by the grace of God, In the Ahmed - Giron debate, the Quran has been proved to be authored by a source greater than man and rendered a true living miracle for all times. You can download the debate from my website:

http://www.ExamineTheTruth.com

will give Ali Sina an opportunity to contest the evidence if he disagrees with the conclusion stated above. So, if Ali accepts, then he can download the debate, listen to it, and we will start our debate from their....

So my Challege to you is to contest the evidence
we will not entertain red herrings... we can debate those other issues later... like preservation, inerrancy... etc.

What we debate about will be directly related to the topic of the Ahmed-Giron Debate.


But if you run Ali, then it will not be the first time ,many have done so,the Scientific and Archaeological evidences of the Quran is IRREFUTABLE .. .. I think you know that Ali... that probably explains your reluctancy....



Quote:
However, since it seems that science and Quran is the lesson you have learned best and this is the only thing you want to talk about


What the...??? I never stated that this is "the only thing I want to talk about" this is a LIE. Rather, this is what I stated:

Quote:
"I have challenged you first, soo we start with Quran and Science first, you can later challenge me to what ever topic you want."



AND

Quote:
"Therefore, we debate the OBJECTIVE evidences first... then we debate the SUBJECTIVE evidences later..."



You have already blatanly made a false statement
against me! So much for your chantings:

"I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me wrong or.... "

"I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me wrong or.... "

"I challenge the apologists of Islam to prove me wrong or.... "



The debate has not even begun yet and you have already been proven wrong! This is equivalent to a "first round knock down.. sending Sina crashing to the canvas..." lol Surprised


So, please dont lie Ali Sina, this is not going to help you it will
only make things worse... you dont want to end up like Dr. Robert Morey do you?

http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm


Let me know if you accept my challenge.. I have wasted enough time here....

thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com
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bread



Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1951
Location: Eurasia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Ahmad,

I would love to follow your discussion with your opponent. But my software does not support a sound reading. Do you have a link to a text debate between yourself and your opponent?

If yes, could you give it to me?

Thanks,

Bread
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Bread, proudly a former Muslim who saw the light.Islam is the only personality cult dedicated to a dead man, MuhamMAD. MuhamMAD is the only paedophile, antisemite, ethnic cleanser and rapist who is worshipped and praised for ``moral``behaviour.
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TruthSpeaker



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 412

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Far Side we need a chicken running around in a circle going cluck cluck cluck, for that is what Nadir is doing about the challange to debate.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I accuse Muhammad of being unfit and unworthy to be a messenger of God.


who cares... yawn....

What a muslim!! Some one just called THE NABI a criminal, and all nadir can muster is "yawn". That should be put on the web as fast as can be!! See how the great muslim is turning yellow and running for cover.

Laughing Laughing Laughing
Laughing Laughing Laughing
Laughing Laughing Laughing

As he turns tail:

Quote:
Let me know if you accept my challenge.. I have wasted enough time here....



and runs for cover!! Laughing Laughing Laughing


Debate, My ass!
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- The only religion, is the religion of truth. Without truth there can be no reason.
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bread



Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Posts: 1951
Location: Eurasia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are enough scientific erors in Quran exposed on this Forum already. All Ali has to do is give those examples.
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Bread, proudly a former Muslim who saw the light.Islam is the only personality cult dedicated to a dead man, MuhamMAD. MuhamMAD is the only paedophile, antisemite, ethnic cleanser and rapist who is worshipped and praised for ``moral``behaviour.
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TruthSpeaker



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 412

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bread wrote:
There are enough scientific erors in Quran exposed on this Forum already. All Ali has to do is give those examples.


But the central tenet of Islam, the "mercy to mankind", the beloved of allah, the one whom even allah praises many a times in the Quran is being called a nasty charachter and the one who claims that Quran is "supernatural" and from allah can only muster a yawn?

So according to this Nadir's Quran is not a message for mankind with the charcter of Muhammad as the key component, but a soothe sayer compendium of dubious predictions?
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rand



Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nadir_ahmed cited:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm

Dear Nadir_ahmed,

Many people in this forum do not believe in Christianity. Even those that do, do not necessarily agree with Robert Morey. If Morey is wrong, how does that demonstrate that Islam is correct?

Best regards,
Rand
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Ali Sina



Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 2244

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nadir Ahmad

I am listening to your talk, However since our debate is in written text I suggest you send me a link to a transcript of this talk so I can quote you and respond to you.

If you do not have any transcript it would be nice if you could write a gist of your talk and post it here. Many people cannot listen. I had to use my friend’s computer to listen you. I could not do that with my own.
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HabibHibee



Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I mistaken but is Nadir basically debating with Christian people/group who hold similar beliefs ?
If so, this is basically 2 bald guys fighting over a comb.
Technically, Nadir makes it difficult to access this "proof" of Quran and science with recordings etc. Has to be a transcript otherwise it is more difficult to review.
All I see is Nadir and his ilk will talk about providing IRREFUTABLE PROOF the Quran came from God but I have yet to see even a HINT of it, anywhere referenced directly. Frankly, it is all a load of bollocks and I really can't afford to waste much more of my time on this. Just paste me a link with this proof. What's to debate ?

Cheers !
Razz
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rand



Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.examinethetruth.com/ references http://www.it-is-truth.org/Index.shtml

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/It-is-truth/index.htm has a critique of that site:


Quote:
"It is the Truth" is a visually attractive site that is full of colorful pictures and illustrations. It is based on the work of Sheikh Abdul Majeed Zindani and the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah, an institution that once enjoyed the support of Osama bin Laden. The goal of this webpage is to convince us that the Qur'an contains scientific facts, many of which were discovered recently, in order to prove that the Qur'an is of divine origin. The "science" of the Qur'an presented here is, in most cases, constructed from extreme extrapolations of a word, or phrase, taken from the Qur'an or Hadith.

The authors also site many "authorities" who believe (although most do not publish these beliefs, especially in the west) that the Qur'an is factually correct. Some of these experts are well known, but this can hardly imply that their opinions are beyond question. Many of the better-known scientists claim that the site "It is the Truth" mis-represents their opinions, including Dr. Simpson, Professor Palmer, Dr. Goeringer, and Dr. Hay.

For some others their status as "experts" seems to be overrated since their names cannot be found in any major institution and no academic papers have been published under their names. In any event, let us scientifically evaluate if "It is Truth".


Best regards,
Rand
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PeaceOnEarth



Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nadir Ahmed seems to be the owner of an irrelevant, marginal, and mostly ignored website that seeks to establish relevance of Islam to modern day through debates.

This one-trick pony has a canned approach to his debates:
http://www.webspawner.com/users/deen56/index.html
(He thinks if it comes from some school's science book, it is "scientific". He even has a link there to elementary school probability theory.)

I think debating Nadir Ahmed achieves very little - even when he loses the debate, this man is not likely to change his zeal for Islam. His past debates have been more about undermining Christian zealots than proving anything about Islam. With little following for his website, he is showing up here in an effort to draw crowd to his site, with the hope that they will convert to his views. Expending energy to debate him achieves nothing worthy.

I suggest that we ignore him altogether.

Instead, we should accept a debate from one who has a position of greater importance in the current day Islam - Zakir Naik. (Thanks are due to Nadir Ahmed Surprised for bringing Zakir's name to our attention. In due time, we shall have his works analyzed.)

Let Zakir Naik take up a challenge against faithfreedom.org. Let people read the views and decide who won.
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Russell
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."


Last edited by PeaceOnEarth on Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mullah Mo



Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 670
Location: In HELL with Mohammed the Pedophile Prophet

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Ahmed wrote:
The topic will be Quran and Modern Science


Obviously this Mr. Ahmed "guy" is ignoring all of us expect “Ali”. It is "Ali" who he wants to debate with, as if we’re robots….LOL….

Anyway, since you think we’re all robots, why don’t you bring up the first point why the Quran is "scientific"??

I would also like to ask Mr. Sina to write a book about this debate so that the whole world can see what just happened. If you can claim that your false ideology is a pair of wings, then FFI is the spider web that will subdue you and your claims.
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Nadir_ahmed



Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess seeing Ali Sina take a knock down in the first round was a little too much for his fans to handle! lol Perhaps they are doing Ali a favor by giving him an excuse to bail out of this debate before Ali takes another fall, and this time down for the count Smile

after all, they dont want their "hero" to end up like Sam "The Sham" Shamoun and Dr. Robert Morey!

http://www.examinethetruth.com/on_the_run.htm
http://www.examinethetruth.com/apology_rejected.htm
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm



My website is actually doing quite well, here
are all the people who link to me:

http://members.cox.net/arshad (look under comparative relgion)
http://www.worldofislam.info
http://www.ancient-history.nl/Islam/Links%20and%20Webrings.htm
http://www.1ummah.org/khamsah/links.html
http://www.iiie.net/Main/Links.html
http://www.leedsnewmuslims.org.uk/new_muslims/web_links.asp
http://www.islamic.org.uk/extern.html

http://www.geocities.com/noorullahwebsite/
http://www.geocities.com/sbwus/
http://www.geocities.com/noorullahwebsite/links.html
http://www.thereligioustruth.com/links.htm
http://www.SCIENCEINQURAN.COM
http://www.geocities.com/hamidsaz/
http://www.4islam.com/menuok.shtml (look under stay sharp folder)
http://www.sharif.org.uk/rebuttals.htm
http://www.geocities.com/anwars_crib/main.html
http://www.waterholes.com/~dennette/1995/islam
http://fosis.org.uk/links/index.htm
http://www.geocities.com/angelasedai2002/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/javedahmad/Javed.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun_change_of_opinion.htm
http://www.alhakekah.com/hedaya.htm
http://www.iraw.org/links.htm
http://nzfarasha.tripod.com/misc/links.htm
http://server2.jamatdawa.org/data2/links.html
http://www.thelastmessage.com/miraclesofislam/index.php?cat=LINKS.HTM




Check out my stats:

http://www.examinethetruth.com/stats/



I apologize for not responding to everyone, but I just dont have the time...

Also I apologize, but as of right now, I dont have transcripts, just audio files... But I think Denis Giron might have them for the debate... I will check with him


Im pleased to see that Ali Sina is listening to the debate, and I trust it is to engage in the debate, and not to "test the waters...."

to back down at this stage in the game, would mean, that Ali heard the Quran and Science debate, realized that he could not contest or refute the miracle claim... and bailed out
which will strengthen my position,.. and I have the paper trail to prove it..


thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
www.ExamineTheTruth.com
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PeaceOnEarth



Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:37 am    Post subject: Rules for the debate Reply with quote

Nadir is not making very clear (clarity has been a challenge for anything Islamic) the intended debate process.

I shall do so now to lend clarity and maintain a semblance of fairness.

Rules for the debate

First, there should be an intended end.
The end should be to establish one of the two mutually exclusive possibilities:
(a) Quran is a miracle from a source more superior than man
(b) Quran is not a miracle but a write-up by common blokes

Second, there need to be ground rules:
Since Nadir does not LIE, I am sure he will stick to the two conditions he laid out:
(1) Topics will STRICTLY be limited to Quran and Modern Science;
(2) Topics will STRICTLY be limited to objective evidences;

This requires that participants:
(a) would not use ANY source outside of Quran to add to evidence in Quran or distort evidence in Quran;
(b) Stick to objectivity ie., eliminate subjective explanations.

If either participant fails to proceed with the debate without violating either of these requirements then we will assume that the participant has conceded defeat.

Third, Control of the debate:
Nadir wants to control the debate. A participant is never allowed control of the debate process, unless it is rigged. However, we will give some flexibility to our guest but require that the control would switch between Nadir and Ali to ensure fairness. One miracle attempt for Nadir and one fallacy for Ali.

Fourth, a conclusion is needed
To "prove" that the Quran is a scientific miracle, Nadir would have to show many evidences. However, to show that it is human and not by a source above man, all that Ali needs to do is show one exception (say, in the form of a fallacy). (This is how any "proof" goes. If Nadir "proves" that Quran is scientific then all that Ali needs is one exception to demolish that claim. In other words, Nadir not only has the burden of proving the miracles, but also the burden of proving that no fallacies exist.)
_________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Russell
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."

 

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