Leaving Islam



Terrorism in Israel/Palestine conflict  


From: A Freethinker
Date: 27 Apr 2002
Time: 11:22:38


ROY: I don't think that massacre done by Israel on Palestine people is just accidental or a side-effect of self-defensive operation. It is a systematic persecution, IMO. How come a genuine humanist can forget that Ariel Sharon, Amos Yaron and other Israelis were directly responsible for the massacres, killings, rapes and disappearance of civilian population that took place in Beirut from Thursday 16 to Saturday 18 September 1982 in the region of the camps of Sabra and Shatila? In that particularly intensive shelling event against Beirut, it caused at least 18,000 deaths and 30,000 injuries, and mostly among civilians.

FREETHINKER: Nobody has forgotten Ariel Sharon's culpability in the massacre at Sabra and Shatila, but it seems you sir have forgotten the many hijackings and other acts of terror planned and executed by Yasser Arafat (including the murder of the US Ambassador to Sudan). Your standards for justice are hypocritically one-sided. Additionally, you have wildly inflated the number of casualties at Sabra and Shatila. There were roughly 700 Palestinians killed in the massacre, the overwhelming majority of them men. It was indeed tragic, and Sharon bears partial responsibility: though no Israelis participated, they turned a blind eye to the Phalangist atrocities. I can freely admit that Sharon has blood on his hands, but you hypocritically refuse to hold Arafat responsible for his crimes.

ROY: I support the establishment of the independent State of Palestine in the same way I support the freedom for Bangladesh in 1971. Some writers in this forum are trying to say that as Israel supported the struggle of freedom of Bangladesh in 1971 (unlike the Arab world), so we Bengalee should have to accept the massacre done by Israelis, otherwise we would become an ungrateful nation! It's indeed a logical fallacy. Yes, India and Israel both has supported us in 1971, but that does not mean they got ultimate legalization of what they are doing now on the people of Palestine and Kashmir respectively. I never considered self determination is a sin, no matter whether the demand comes from oppressed Bangalees, Palestinis, Kashmiris or even Chakmas. I will always be in the side of oppressed people for obvious reasons, no matter the religion in which they are born or what ideology the hold. We are honored and really grateful to the Indians because they showed a great respect for our self-determination in 71, but I expect that similar view they should hold for every country and nation and specially for their own people. Calling their own people as "terrorists" or "separatist" and engaging military power to stop them will not solve the issue in the long run, anyway.

FREETHINKER: I too am a supporter of an independent Palestinian state. I too support the rights of all people to self-determination. But why can't the Kashmiris, for example, operate within the confines of Indian Democracy? Why can't they elect a state government that reflects their outlook and lobbies for their interests in New Dehli? Why must they engage in violence? Why must they be granted outright independence? Why is the Muslim allowed to govern the non-Muslim, but will not allow the non-Muslim to govern him?The people of the Southern Sudan have been waging a tragic struggle for self-determination for 20 years now. Unlike the people of Kashmir, they have been brutalized in the worst way: over 2 million killed...the majority of them starved in man-made famine. They have suffered the horrific indignities of becoming ensnaired in a revival of the Muslim slave-trade (in which their women have been raped en mass as standard operating proceedure), and had their villages, live-stock, schools, hospitals and food-distribution centers destroyed in both ground and air attacks. But you've never said a word about the Southern Sudanese Mr Roy. Could it possibly be because they are non-Muslims and therefore their plight doesn't concern you in the least?

ROY: I would like to point out that some writers are regularly mentioning that Palestinians are suicide bombing on innocent women and children because of their childhood brainwashing and the hatreds implanted into the minds of all Muslims to hate Jews, which is not 100% true. I will clarify the point later more elaborately, but now please concentrate on Ariel Sharon's famous quote -

"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian Child will be born in this area. The Palestinian Woman and Child is more dangerous than the Man, Because the Palestinian Child existence refers that Generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli Civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With One hit I've killed 750 Palestinians ( in Rafah, 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic Girls as The Palestinian Woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and Nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do." - Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956

FREETHINKER: I have no way of knowing whether the above quote is true or if it is a fabrication of Islamist propagandists. For the sake of argument, let us presume Sharon indeed made this statement 46 years ago. His words are reprehensible... indefensible! But what about the countless examples of Arafat and his cohorts referring to Jews as swine? What about the Saudi cleric who just yesterday advocated the enslavement of Jewish women? Once again, your standards are hypocritically one-sided.

ROY: The above quote reveals that massage of hatred is not restricted for brainwashed Palestinians, only. Israelis who are considered to be highly educated through humanistic values, are also not exceptions. Israeli schoolbooks are regularly promoting hatred toward Palestinians. Those school textbooks as well as children's storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as 'murderers', 'rioters', 'suspicious', and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule, rather than the exception, in Israeli schoolbooks (http://www.arabia.com/news/article/english/0,11827,186070,00.html). So why blame only Palestinians! Israelis are not dove-like angel either specially in the game of spreading hatred!

FREETHINKER: You have conveniently failed to mention that after the Oslo accords, Israeli textbooks were changed to reflect the new reality. In Palestine, the opposite occurred: the Palestinians now had the right to pursue their own educational paradigm and they chose to issue textbooks demonizing Israelis and not recognizing the state of Israel.

ROY: We are aware of suicide bombing events of Palestinians. But I don't consider suicide bombing is a "CAUSE" - it is just an effect. The desperate legitimate struggle of the Palestinians to free themselves from the yoke of Israeli oppression over the last 54 years has been dealt a severe blown with the latest brutal massacre in Jenin. The world recently watched in horror as the Israelis invaded the occupied territories and indulged in mass slaughter. The anguished cries of the innocent men, women and children failed to arouse the international community to assist the victims. I just didn't find legalizing Israeli act just calling the Palestinians as "terrorists". Bangladeshi guerillas also demolished pools, culverts, bridges and attacked Bihari Colonies in 1971. Even Quader Siddiki himself killed many unarmed Biharis and razakars even after the victory day of 71. So you cannot tell that our mukti-bahini never killed an innocent or unarmed people. When the entire nation is at war, you cannot expect to follow a Gandhian rule of non-violence always.

FREETHINKER: The right to self-defense does not include the willful slaughter of women and children...except within the convoluted logic of mass murderers and their apologists like you, Mr Roy. You mention Jenin, as if the events there are reason enough to justify suicide bombings. Let me remind you that Israel was being inundated with suicide bombings in the weeks leading up to the incursion. Jenin was untouched then, but Israelis (and their body parts) were strewn all over the streets of Tel Aviv, Haifa, Jerusalem and Netanya. You were conspicuously silent then Mr Roy. Your conscience wasn't aroused, your sensibilities were not outraged. Could it be again, because the victims were non-Muslim?

ROY: Even in British period Mastarda Shurjo-sen, Khudiraam, Pritilata sacrificed their lives forming suicide squad. If they are freedom fighters, why not the Palestinians ?

FREETHINKER: I don't know anything about the above group, but I'll venture to bet they targeted British troops with their bombs, and not women, children and the elderly.

ROY: I would like to quote A plea from Palestinian Mother for you all -

"Killing oneself for any cause, in my point of view is not justified. But we understand that when a person sees no future for himself/herself, lives in the worst conditions at refugee camps in his own country, is threatened at all times, has to work as a laborer on his own land for his occupier -- while someone coming from Poland or Russia or the USA or elsewhere enjoys life in his native country, having all the rights he lacks in HIS land, having access to everything he is denied... this is slavery in the 20th/21st century.

I've asked about the 16 year old girl who killed herself with a bomb, and many with her. Do you know what drove her to this? Have you ever thought why a beautiful young girl would kill herself? A murderer? Did you know that this girl's father was assassinated? So was her brother. She was left alone in a country under occupation. She had a cause. Dying as a martyr was the answer, in her point of view. The notion of better die on our feet than live on our knees is a strong one in all viewpoints in our part of the world."

FREETHINKER: The Christian people of East Timor were occupied for 23 years by Indonesia. THey suffered 100,000 killed in that time. Palestinians have suffered no more than 5000 killed since their own occupation began in 67. Why is it Mr Roy, that the Timorese never resorted to suicide bombings, even though their occupation was 20 times as bloody as the Palestinians? The answer is simple: their culture does not sanctify the murder of innocents. The children of Palestine who are blowing themselves up and purposefully killing non-combatants are not doing so out of desperation: there are children in Africa living in much worse squalor. No Sir Mr Roy, it is not hopelessness and desperation that drives them to do what they do. Rather, it is a culture of hatred...created and fostered by their parents, teachers and leaders...that tells them they will be honored by their entire society, that they will have their image posted on the walls of their cities, that they they will become saints qualified for eternal paradise...if they will commit mass murder. The leaders are thus allowed to pursue terrorism to achieve political objectives...and the parents can receive a bountiful stipend from Islamic charities. By your words Mr Roy, you have exposed yourself as a proponent of terrorism. You justify the murder of innocents just as enthusiastically as any Muslim religious fanatic. By your logic, the world is destined to descend into a culture of mayhem, where anyone who perceives themselves as oppressed will be justified in the mass murder of innocent men, women and children. No sir Mr Roy, some things are morally wrong and no amount of equivocation and rationalization can make them right.

ROY: Ariel Sharon committed crime. There are some specific Complaint Against Ariel Sharon for his involvement in the massacres at Sabra and Shatila. His act should not and should never go unpunished.

FREETHINKER: If Ariel Sharon was culpable in the massacre at Shatila and Sabra, I agree he should be held to account. In the same spirit, shouldn't Arafat be held accountable for his hijackings and the murder of the US Ambassador to Khartoum?


Note: Although Ali Sina has also used the nom de plume "afreethinker" in the past, "FREETHINKER" in this debate is someone else.


"The Rabin/Peres government offered their hand of friendship to the Palestinians back in the early 90's. The Palestinian response was a suicide bombing campaign in '96 that slaughtered Israelis, discredited peace and ushered into power Netenyahu and Likud. The Barak government was prepared to turn over 97% of the West Bank and all of Gaza in 2000. The Palestinian response was rejection at the negotiating table and another round of suicide bombings. Again, the party of peace (Labor) was discredited, and now Sharon is in power. When are intelligent people going to comprehend that Palestinians do not want peace? Should Israel ever negotiate a withdrawal from ALL of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, anyone who thinks that the suicide bombings and other acts of violence will cease is incredibly naive. There may be a brief period of cessation while the new regime consolidates itself, but no sooner than this is accomplished... the campaign to destroy Israel will resume. Victimology is a convoluted game of deception designed to appeal to the naive. If the Palestinians were willing, peace could be achieved very, very quickly. But they prefer the shedding of blood and the glory of martyrdom." - Freethinker






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