EdipYuksel vs Ali Sina Page 8

Dear Ali:

A participant of the forum, Mirror of Truth, in another threat answered your argument. You were urging me to join you in using hadith as a reliable evidence to incriminate Muhammad. I am quoting his answer, since I agree with all of it and it will save me time. I will answer some of other arguments of yours after this excerpt from Mirror of Truth, whose answer is distinguished with five asterisks:
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I'm writing my first post regarding the actual debate and I note that some classic AS double talk is beginning to creep into the flow of debate.

On the one hand - AS bluffs his hand by stating:

Well he launches into an awful lot of pre-amble if he has no need for hadith. Edip has made it explicit that he does not need nor has any desire to discuss the hadith.

During this pre-amble AS lists two possibilities as the motives for the fabrications which I accept. These are namely:

1. Glorification of an idolized leader. This would explain hadiths for example that report that Muhammad's manliness was equivalent to 30 men or whatever number it was. In trying to make their hero macho they do not realize the absurdity they create - and the inadvertent slander they commit.

2. The fabrications of enemies whether they be hypocrite 'believers'/converts or or open enemies. This explains a great many hadiths that are covert digs at Muhammad. An example is the cherished hadith of the 'miraj' where Moses acts as the wiser guide to Muhammad's alleged negotiations with God. Obviously this is the fabrication of a Jewish convert who asserts the superiority of Moses' bargaining/knowledgeability.

What Ali Sina discounts and does not mention at all is that there is another group of hadiths that were introduced (or supported) in the folklore in order to support the actions of corrupt leaders. If corrupt leaders/mullahs could justify their pedophilia or desires to rape and pillage by introducing or supporting such hadiths then having the absolute power there would be little reason for them to reject such hadith. Thus the hadith that obviously makes Muhammad look evil/wicked/stupid etc. become canonized because it meets the secondary need of the corrupt leaders.

Thus there are motives for these hadith that AS has completely ignored.

The sum of it is that whatever the motive for ahadith - none are required for the purposes of following God's system - not one.

AS has stated he has no requirement for them. None of us are shocked and the position to go on sans ahadith is very tenable. They are fabrications. The absurdity they contain is enough to convince the free-thinker of that. I would advise that AS lets go of his love for the hadith that I'm sure rivals the mullahs in order to make a real contribution to the debate. Let's move on from the nonsense of ahadith and see what arguments he has left now.
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I want to elaborate little bit more about motivation in fabrication of hadiths. Ali Sina is treating hadith sources in a simplistic way. I recommend him to read Mahmud Abu Rayya's book Adwa ' 'ala al-Sunna al-Muhammadiya (Cairo: 1377/1958). It is one of the best criticism of history of hadith collection and procedures. The book allocates 60 pages to motives for fabricating hadith and documents many of them. People fabricated hadith to even advertise the dates of a particular town, such as, Ajwa. They fabricated hadiths to promote submission to the rule Kings. They fabricated hadith to justify the massacres and tortures of Umayyad or Abbasid kings…. Ali Sina ignores all these motives and wants us to believe that any hadith depicting Muhammad as a violent person must be accepted without question! One of his suggested criteria for accepting hadith is if "It is consistent with the character of Muhammad" found in his hostile imagination or in other dubious hadith books! Accepting this offer is more difficult than to swallow the prophecies of his favorite psychics.