titu miah vs the FFI Staff - Part III

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To FFI
October 1, 2006
The Vatican has covered up massive cases of child sex crimes what do you say about that?

Why won't you answer my question?

To Titu:
October 1, 2006
Titu,

When the discussion gets to your disliking you lose temper and starts abusing and cursing. That is merely a waste of time. I do have a lot of other things to do. I accept that I probably cannot reach you at the moment. All I have to say really is on the FFI site. I am not a christian, and the charlatens and con men have always found religion a good and convenient cover to hide behind. That is the power of the present communication technologies that even the attempt by the Vatican is being covered in the press and openly. This freedom of speech and freedom of press is good for the people and this is what you are willing to kill the apostates and blasphemers for in muslim lands.

doubtless.


To FFI
October 2, 2006
Subject: Final Message

I say let the kafirs and apostates live in peace, This life is all they have, so be it.

Our job is only to spread the word thats it, Not to force our belief on anyone.

I will not waste my time talking to apostates, Its counter productive. I will concentrate on spreading Islam across Britain.

To Titu
October 2, 2006

You can say what you like. Your saying does not matter. It is what the Sharia says that counts. Are you saying you can go against the law of Allah? Are you going to change the Hadd laws? What kind of a muslim are you?

doubtless.

To FFI
October 3, 2006

Nazi dog,

There is no way in this world that you could win over any muslim with your stupid arguments. Your ignorance is astounding! You cannot question something you have no understanding of. So say what you like, No muslim in his right mind will listen to the rantings of an apostate pig, You have not convinced me in the slightest so you have failed miserably and i see your aim is not to show proof but to undermine the relegion of god and its followers. Your here just to insult and get a reaction from muslims and post it on your site and use it against Islam. Doubtless you are a fool, a nazi wanabe a monkeys cousin and you will do the world a favour when you die.

PS. Your site is crap, full of shit.


To FFI
October 3, 2006
Subject: My poem to you

Doubtless is a kafir dog,

Apostate pig trapped in a fog.

lies and deceit is his aim,

he's got no one else to blame.

Ali Sina is his girl,

give the ***** pig a twirl,

So if you see this ***** *****,

Dont bother, just be blunt.

I guess your life is full of shit,

Thats why you rant and rave and spit.

Tell me what is wrong with you?,

Did your mother shit you out like a poo?


To FFI
October 4, 2006

You will never defeat Islam. You've tried to wipe out the muslims for centuries but were still here growing stronger by the day. You really think your site will make muslims turn away from the truth? Judging by the muslim comments i don't think so. The site is no diffrent from the KKK or any other fascist site. Your mission is unachievable but i guess your going to try your best. Islam will be victoriouse so we'll see who has the last laugh HA HA HA



To Titu
October 4, 2006

Actually we have already defeated Islam. The evidence is all in the site. Now all we have to do is to make the site reach to a lot of people. Islam will fall like a house of cards in our own lifetime. Don't worry. You will be laughing too because you'll fee free from lies and this will feel very good. So really no one will be the loser. Once you leave Islam you'll be the winner too.




To FFI
October 4, 2006
Actually we have already defeated Islam.

No actually your nowhere near it, Your site doesn't make an ounce of diffrence, theres loads
of apostate material out there but it doesn't mean Islam is defeated.

The evidence is all in the site.

No, Theres only bullshit on your site.

Now all we have to do is to make the site reach to a lot of people.

Yeh and most of them will think your KKK bastards

Islam will fall like a house of cards in our own lifetime.

No, Islam will conquer the world in our lifetime.

Don't worry.

I aint worried *****

You will be laughing too

***** damn right! at you

because you'll fee free from lies

Free from your lies

and this will feel very good.

Very very good HEH HEH HEH

So really no one will be the loser.

Except the kafir dogs

Once you leave Islam you'll be the winner too.

No thanks im really happy being muslim thank you very much.
Makes me wonder, If you truly beleive it is not the truth why are you trying so hard to convince others with your lies?


To FFI
October 4, 2006

The following was sent to us by a "revert" to Islam. It offers a logical insight to dealing with apostasy in light of the Holy Quran. Please note we are fully aware of the rulings of various states regarding apostasy and are also aware that treason which is a form of apostasy is punishable by death in the states of Arkansas, California, Colorado, Georgia, and Louisiana. We also know this law existed in England only up until 1999.

Independent: Bush wants death for 'spy who offered secrets to Iraq'

A couple of weeks ago during question-answer session in our center, a member inquired about the punishment for apostasy in Islam. It is the prevalent belief among some Muslims (especially the isolated ones) that according to Shari'a, the apostate must be put to death.

I was once an apostate and openly declared I did not believe in Islam and rejected even the existence of God. Thank God! I was then living in a country where people did not execute apostates. I thank God for giving me a chance to repent and return to the fold of Islam. I, being an apostate once, became free from the cultural and ethnic Islam to study true Islam with an open mind. "Islamic scholars" and Imams do not anymore control my mind and beliefs unless their decrees (fatwas) are (1) in conformity with the Quran, (2) the hadith that they quote do not contradict the Quran.

I believe that many Muslims are reluctant to speak up because many "Islamic" cultures today encourage docility and teach to unquestioningly accept the decisions of "qualified" scholars. This is a new phenomenon; in the time of Muhammad (pbuh), ideas were only supported after they had been proven to be in harmony with the Quran. Scholars could not just pull rank, as they were expected to be able to argue their cases. In fact, in a famous incident of Islamic history, a humble woman of Medina publicly corrected the Caliph. One day, Hazrat Umar was announcing a change in the rule mahr, when the woman in the crowd suddenly stopped him in his track by loudly quoting a verse of the Quran which contradicted his proposal. He had to relent, saying, "The women of Medina know the Quran better than Umar." So, it is time for Muslims to question the imams and scholars if they deviate from the Quran and hadith that do not contradict the Quran. We must not only be satisfied by the answer of the scholars, but we must verify the source of their references. Remember, if Hazrath Umar can make a mistake, ordinary scholars and ordinary people like us also can make greater mistakes.

The Quran and the sayings of the Prophet require Muslims to think critically. Pagans are repeatedly berated for not questioning, for not using reason, even being compared to dumb animals on several occasions!

......[ The long article can still be found at faithfreedom.com]

I, like many Muslims, am still bitter over smear jobs done on my religion by Western media over the Gulf war, and the Rushdie affair. So, the last thing that I want is to see Islam slandered all over again because of the barbaric and un-Islamic apostasy law. Ask yourselves: what kind of religion kills people for simple choice of faith, a change of heart? Not a religion of love and peace, not a religion worthy of respect! Perpetuation of the law to kill apostates can only increase or create doubts in the heart of the Muslims and potential Muslims, as people everywhere are already bombarded by negative images of Islam.

My message to those Muslims who, like me, yearn to see Islam grow in the West: Dawa will never be successful in the West as long as crazy nonsense of law of apostasy is unchallenged by Muslims. If Muhammed Ali, Cat Stevens, and Murad Hoffman were harassed by a reactionary Christian group, the Muslims will be up in arms! We must be consistent.

In closing, Islam is only vulnerable when Muslims abandon its clear teaching of reason, tolerance, and peace.

Article from www.faithfreedom.com



To Titu:


Only a jackass can think that treason and apostacy are similar. A citizen can voluntarity give up his citizenship anytime. There is no state that forces a citizen to remain a citizen of that state. Treason is when one pretends to be a citizen but has loyalty to another entity.

Apostacy is a renunciation of ones faith. Only Islam forces people to say that they submit to islam at the penalty of death. If Islam considers apostacy akin to treason then it considers all muslims as soldiers engaged in active warfare and the kaafris should treat all muslims amongst them as such. Any muslim who supports that view obviously considers himself a soldier of an alien army.

doubtless.


To FFI
October 4, 2006

Read the article moron or are you playing ignorant and blindly following ali?
Sina's arguments have been discussed on muslim sites and destroyed into oblivion.
Check out faithfreedom.com and weblinks if you don't believe me.



To Titu
October 4, 2006

titu,

if you think faithfreedom has answered anything, you are welcome to it. I have read the article. Treason and apostacy are not even remotely similar. Faithfreedom borrowed that from Zakir Naik who borrowed that from Mawlana Mududi who borrowed it from a maulana who was at the same time in history as Syed Ahmed (and I cannot remember that maulana's name at the moment).

doubtless.




To Titu


I am sorry that I did not include (and perhaps this is what may be causing confusion in your mind) that you need to make up your mind whether you believe that apostates should be put to death as you yelled a few email ago or whether you buy into heresies like the one you sent from the Ahmeddiyas or the nonsense from faithfreedom.com. The practical side is that in muslim countries, an apostate does not stand a chance of surviving a few days. He will be killed by zealots. The arguments by faithfreedom.com have been torn up by your salafi brothers many a times. Ask them and not me.

doubtless.


To FFI:
Show me proof of apostates who have recieved the death penalty, then we can continue.



To Titu:
And this is only the tip of the Iceberg:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

An accurate count of Muslims rejecting Islam is currently impossible to obtain because the ex-Muslims are very loath to reveal their apostasy even to friends and families for fear of retribution and retaliation even when they are living in the West. The greatest threat to apostates in the Muslim world derives from private individuals who take punishment into their own hands, and states which are complicit by their silence towards these individual crimes. An example among many is the case of a Bangladeshi Murtad Fitri Christian evangelist who was stabbed while returning home from a film version of the Gospel of Luke ("When Muslims Convert", by Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, Friday, March 04, 2005, Commentary magazine, 2005). Bangladesh does not have a law against apostasy, but someone killed the man. Many Muslims who have turned away from Islam in Great Britain have faced abuse, violence, and even murder at the hands of their previous co-religionists; [17] one estimate suggests there are 200,000 apostates in Britain. There are similar reports of violent intimidation of those electing to reject Islam in other Western countries.[18]

* In 1980, Pakistan incorporated making any disparaging remark against any personality revered in Islam into the penal code as an offence. In 1986 the law was extended to specifically include "Penal Code 295-C: Use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of the Holy Prophet: whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet, shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine. In October 1990, the Federal Shariat Court (FSC) ruled that "the penalty for contempt of the Holy Prophet … is death and nothing else". In their 1996 report on Pakistan, Amnesty International stated that these laws have been extensively abused to harass members of religious minorities such as Christians and Ahmadis and that

"In all the cases known to Amnesty International, these charges have been arbitrarily brought, founded solely on the individual's minority religious beliefs or on malicious accusations against individuals of the Muslim majority who advocate novel ideas. The available evidence indicates that charges were brought as a measure to intimidate and punish members of minority religious communities or non-conforming members of the majority community and that the hostility towards minority groups appeared in many cases compounded by personal enmity, professional envy or economic rivalry or a desire to gain political advantage" .[19]

An example of the passions and the feelings of extreme outrage that are evoked within the Muslim community is provided by Amnesty International 's 2005 Report on Pakistan:

* Samuel Masih, a 27-year-old Christian, was arrested in August 2003 and charged with having thrown litter on the ground near a mosque in Lahore. This was deemed an offence under section 295 of the Pakistan Penal Code, which provides up to two years' imprisonment for defiling a place of worship. Samuel Masih was held in a Lahore prison but transferred to hospital in May, suffering from tuberculosis. He died after his police guard attacked him in the hospital. The police officer stated that he had done his "religious duty"; he was charged with murder.[20]

Other examples of persecution of apostates converting to Christianity have been given by the Barnabas Fund from Kuwait, Sudan, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan, Egypt, and Bangladesh. Barnabas Fund report concludes:

"The field of apostasy and blasphemy and related "crimes" is thus obviously a complex syndrome within all Muslim societies which touches a raw nerve and always arouses great emotional outbursts against the perceived acts of treason, betrayal and attacks on Islam and its honour. While there are a few brave dissenting voices within Muslim societies, the threat of the application of the apostasy and blasphemy laws against any who criticize its application is an efficient weapon used to intimidate opponents, silence criticism, punish rivals, reject innovations and reform, and keep non-Muslim communities in their place."

Similar views are expressed by the 'non-religious' International Humanist and Ethical Union.[21]

* In March 2006, an Afghan citizen Abdul Rahman was charged with apostasy and could have faced the death penalty for converting to Christianity. His case attracted much international attention with Western countries condemning Afghanistan for persecuting a convert. Charges against Abdul Rahman were dismissed on technical grounds by the Afghan court after intervention by the president Hamid Karzai. He was released and left the country to find refuge in Italy.

* Two other Afghan converts to Christianity were arrested in March and their fate is unknown. In February, yet other converts had their homes raided by police.

* Bahá'ís in Iran, the nation of origin of the Bahá'í Faith and Iran's largest religious minority, are considered apostates by the Shi'a clergy because of their claim to a valid religious revelation subsequent to that of Muhammad. Iranian law therefore treats Bahá'ís as heretics rather than members of an independent religion, as they describe themselves. Bahá'ís have therefore been subjected to much persecution (documented by various third party entities such as the United Nations, Amnesty International, and the European Union) including beatings, torture, unjustified executions, false imprisonment, confiscation and destruction of property owned by individuals and the Bahá'í community, denial of employment, denial of government benefits, denial of civil rights and liberties, and denial of access to higher education.[22]

* Since the 1990s, the Islamic Republic of Iran has used death squads against converts, including major Protestant leaders, and under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, engaged in a systematic campaign to track down and reconvert or kill those who have changed their religion from Islam.

* In 2003, Egyptian security forces arrested 22 converts and people who had helped them. Some were tortured, and one, Isam Abdul Fathr, died in custody. Last year, Gaseer Mohamed Mahmoud was whipped and had his toenails pulled out by police, and was told he would be imprisoned until he gave up Christianity.

* It appears that actual state-ordered executions are rarer than killings by vigilantes, mobs, and family members, sometimes with state acquiescence. In the last two years in Afghanistan, Islamist militants have murdered at least five Christians who had converted from Islam.

* Vigilantes have killed, beaten, and threatened converts in Pakistan, the Palestinian territories, Turkey, Nigeria, Indonesia, Somalia, and Kenya. In November, Iranian convert Ghorban Dordi Tourani was stabbed to death by a group of fanatical Muslims. In December, Nigerian pastor Zacheous Habu Bu Ngwenche was attacked for allegedly hiding a convert. In January, in Turkey, Kamil Kiroglu was beaten unconscious and threatened with death if he refused to deny his Christian faith and return to Islam.

* On March 21 2006, the Algerian parliament approved a new law requiring imprisonment for two to five years and a fine between five and ten thousand euros for anyone "trying to call on a Muslim to embrace another religion." The same penalty applies to anyone who "stores or circulates publications or audio-visual or other means aiming at destabilizing attachment to Islam."

* Converts and Baha'is are not the only ones subject to such violence. Ahmadis, whom many Muslims regard as heretics, suffer a similar fate throughout the Muslim world. The victims also include many Muslims who question restrictive interpretations of Islam. In traditionally moderate Indonesia, Yusman Roy is now serving two years in prison for leading prayers in Indonesian and Arabic instead of only in Arabic.

* In April 2006 after a court case in Egypt recognized the Bahá'í Faith, members of the clergy convinced the government to appeal the court decision. One member of parliament, Gamal Akl of the opposition Muslim Brotherhood, said the Bahá'ís were infidels who should be killed on the grounds that they had changed their religion.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Mohamed_Taha

Mahmoud Mohamed Taha (1909 – January 18, 1985) was a Sudanese political figure and theologian. Taha played a prominent role in Sudan's struggle for independence, and was a cofounder of the Sudanese Republican Party. He was notable for his advocacy of liberal reform within Sudanese society and within Islam itself. The regime of Sudanese President Gaafar Nimeiry executed Taha for his views.

doubtless



To FFI
October 5, 2006

I don't read apostate material

Full of mumbo jumbo wishy washy nonsense


To Titu
October 5, 2006

Funny. Since when is wikipedia apostate material?
Execution of Mohammed Taha in Sudan for apostasy is history. Look it up for yourself. Execution of apostates in Iran and Pakistan is well documented. Look it up for yourself.

doubtless.

To FFI

Whats all this rubbish about apostates being executed?

Do i sound like i give a ***** what punishment traitors recieve?

Whatever these countries have decided at the end of the day its there choice. Do we stop america from executions? or China? People should abide by the laws of there countries so tough luck.


To FFI

Monkeys cousin,

If you had any doubt Islam was the truth you wouldn't try so hard to twist and distort all the texts building up your own fabrications and lies. So try your tricks on some one else moron.


To FFI
October 6, 2006

Im a believer and always will be the matter is will you always be an apostate? or when the warriors come for you will you shit yourself and keep it hidden inside you because it seems your admitting the fact that you fear death! im not surprised your scared to meet your maker especially after what you've been saying. All kafirs are cowards deep down who fear what they don't understand.



To Titu
October 6, 2006
Everyone dies one day. I just don't want to waste a death. I do not have a death wish. Islam propogates as a sickness by killing anyone who questions as rapidly as possible. Well with the modern technologies, that is not possible anymore. So I have no intention of following the asinine script of Islamic warriors. You are most welcome to live in your own mythical world. FFI reach increases by the day.

doubtless.

To FFI
October 9, 2006

Yeh yeh yeh whatever man.

To FFI
October 11, 2006

You and i know the american government were behind 9/11, You think i don't know what the New world order is?

The kafirs are the real satanist, Barbarian scum bent on pulling the wool over the eyes of the world. Face it theres no proof of the hijacking and gold was taken from the towers aswell as hundreds of false transactions before the towers were detonated. Theres no proof that bin laden was behind it.

Why is there symbols all over America's landscape and in government buildings and statues of an ancient satanic cult hell bent on world domination?

Your all a bunch of liars trying to destract the world with scaremongering tactics by blaming muslims while you hide the real truth from the world.

War brings enormouse profit for the west. So try your bullshit lies somewhere else, The world is wising up to your lying filthy stinking inhuman agenda *****.



To Titu
October 11, 2006

American Government was not behind 9/11. That is indulging in conspiracy theories. Many have debunked that silliness and you can easily find the arguments on the net.

doubtless.


To FFI
October 14, 2006

Doubtless,

Your ideology is based on the New World Order. To secularise the world and strip it of faith & to prepare the world for the end of days. Don't tell me that s not the case, I know your game. The fact is, It is inevitable, It will happen. Muslims will face the worst violence ever imaginable but will this make me lose my faith & apostate? I'm not a coward like you. Islam is the truth and to tell you the truth i don't read material supplied by apostates, Which i doubt u are doubtless. How can you apostate when you were never really a muslim?

The fact is that we will suffer extreme brutality and inhuman treatment

We will eventually conquer the planet & bring back the justice this world needs and strip these Whitehouse gangsters of there power. Democracy - The rights of the majority over the minority, What kind of stupid system is that?

Get a life moron,

Clued up



Titu,

Since you "don't read material supplied by apostates", there is little point in trying to tell you anything. You already know. You know what is in the future, you know what all the conspiracies are, and you know how everything is going to turn out.

Science has shown that the creation stories of the religions are silly. Adam and eve did not exist. You may not deal with that fact, but it is inevitable that your kids kids will. Facts have a nasty way of not going away. Science does not claim infallibility but thrives on being shown to be wrong so it can fix the error. The simple fact is that just that one fact shows that Quran cannot be the word of Allah. You are not the only religious person who is unable to deal with that single fact. But fortunately for the human species the young are more flexible and resilient. They will learn to deal with the truth.

doubtless.



To FFI
October 14, 2006

Doubtless,

Evey cause has an effect, There is complex design in creation that cannot be explained away. Scientists themselves recognise that fact although they are secularists & are looking for other explanations but at the end of the day it will lead to one thing, The attribute of the creation is that we are created, Some superior intelligence created all of this. The odds that it all came together on its own is absurd. I am not here to convince anyone but to make people aware not to blindly follow scientific theories, As you have admitted scientists are not infallible, They do not have all the answers, We all have an equal responsibility to search within ourselves & look for the truth. You would have to be a staunch ignoramus to take there theories as fact. You haven't convinced me that your trustworthy or have any integrity, That fact alone has destroyed your cause. I see the damage your twisted version of Islam is spreading, Your in the same boat as Bin Laden. I assure you i will do everything in my power to teach my offspring the dangers of misinterpreting Islam as you, Bin Laden & the vast majority of Muslims have done. The Internet is a dangerous tool for young minds & you are trying to take advantage of that. I am a true believer, Nothing except God can take that away.

I pity you.


To Titu:
October 15, 2006

Titu, of course scientist are not infallible and neither do they claim to be. So far there does not appear to be any reason to invoke a "superior intelligence" to explain things in nature. Even if there was a reason to accept a "superior intelligence", it is clear that allah of the Quran does not fit the bill. The vindictive and evil of Allah could not possibly be that superior intelligence. Yes we all do have that responsibility to look for the truty and search for it within ourselves. But we also have a responsibility to respect another and that they may come up with a different answer. They may be wrong but they can come up with a different answer with the best they can do. For coming up with a different answer, you and your allah want them to die and go to hell fire for eternity. That is absurd. The death threats you make are made by others as well. In canada poor "moderate" muslims are complaining that they are being threatened by true muslims with death. See:

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/

MCC asks Attorney General to
Intervene in apostasy and blasphemy charges
Moderate Muslims are being silenced by death threats

TORONTO—The Muslim Canadian Congress has written to the Ontario Attorney General Michael Bryant, asking him to intervene, following "the recent pattern of allegations against moderate and liberal Muslims by Islamic fundamentalists, accusing the latter of being "anti-Islam" or "smearing Islam."

In the letter, the President of the MCC said, "It seems these tactics from overseas are now being imported into Canada where ordinary liberal and moderate Muslims are being bullied into silence by well funded Islamist organisations." She wrote that in one case, "the name of a Muslim broadcaster was circulated to tens of thousands of people after labelling him as the top anti-Islam individual in the country."

The letter said that on the surface this may seem to be an innocuous dispute within a minority community, but the danger such allegations present to individuals accused of apostasy and blas-phemy is serious, and are "thinly veiled death threats." ....
Islam will have to face its critics intellectually in the present age. It cannot silence the criticism and the questions. Islam will have to compete with other ideas and win or lose on its ability to convince people of its truth. And I assure you that Islam cannot do that because it is not true.

doubtless.


To FFI
October 15, 2006

Titu, of course scientist are not infallible and neither do they claim to be. So far there does not appear to be any reason to invoke a "superior intelligence" to explain things in nature.


That is a ridiculous statement. There is more reason to believe in a "Superior intelligence" than to put it down to a coincidence.

Even if there was a reason to accept a "superior intelligence", it is clear that allah of the Quran does not fit the bill. The vindictive and evil of Allah could not possibly be that superior intelligence.


You don't have any knowledge of God and his attributes. Look, God can forgive any sin except shirk, This is understandable because this is an attack on God & not the creation & deserves the most severe punishment.

Yes we all do have that responsibility to look for the truty and search for it within ourselves. But we also have a responsibility to respect another and that they may come up with a different answer. They may be wrong but they can come up with a different answer with the best they can do. For coming up with a different answer, you and your allah want them to die and go to hell fire for eternity.


Everyone is entitled to there own beleifs until they die.

That is absurd. The death threats you make are made by others as well. In canada poor "moderate" muslims are complaining that they are being threatened by true muslims with death. See:

This is exactly what i mean, Twisting the words. Where does it actually say "true Muslims"? Islamic Fundamentalists & true Islam are two diffrent things, The prophet has said " Do not be extreme in your deen" & " Do everything in moderation", I practice my relegion based on theses two statements & so do the vast majority of Muslims who have been defending there relegion since the beginning so don't confuse yourself into beleiving otherwise, Islam can answer all the critics aslong as they interpret the quranic text correctly. The Quran can be misinterpreted, I see how easy that would be for you.


To FFI
October 17, 2006

If God chooses to abandon those who abandon him, Who are you to say he is vindictive and cruel. You have been given the option to have faith or to remain ignorant to it. You could destroy all of creation but it would not compare to the sin of kufr. God knows who will be kafirs but he also wants us to know, whats the point if we don't know why were being punished? through his wisdom, he has created cause and effect, action and reaction. The most fundamental issue is monotheism, the diffrence between a kafir and a muslim. Having the correct beleif is the only gaurantee of safety from the hell fire. As i said before, God can forgive every sin except kufr. So how can you object to that?

P.S Be carefull what you say about God


Titu

if you really believe what you wrote your ability to reason is completely compromised. Allah is obviously terribly incompetent or a vicious sadist. He has created far more kaafirs than true believers so far, and then he is unable to do anything himself but needs help of people like yourself to punish the kaafirs whle they are alive. And you are terrified of a Allah like that? Truly the sad part is that all this mumbo jumbo makes sense to you.

doubtless.

To FFI
October 17, 2006
Satanist,

Human beings created kufr aided by satan. We have a choice, God didn't force you to be a kafir, you chose that with your own ignorance. God needs no ones help, he is wise enough to let you fall further and further into sin until you create your own downfall. God doesn't need us we need him. So carry on worshipping satans true relegion - kufr.


titu,
Just tell me:

1. Does Allah know at the moment he created me what choice I will make or not? (your answer should be: Yes).
2. Does Allah have the power to not create me? (your answer: Yes )
3. Does Allah have the power to change me so I can make different choices? (your answer: Yes).

Given all the answers you give for the above questions, do you reall think
I can make choice other than what Allah has ordained for me? (Your answer: No)
Then why is your Allah going to punish me? Seriously, man, think. Does all of this logic of yours really make sense to you? Help me and tell me what am I missing?

doubtless.


To FFI
October 18,2006

titu,
Just tell me:


1. Does Allah know at the moment he created me what choice I will make or not? (your answer should be: Yes).

Yes

2. Does Allah have the power to not create me? (your answer: Yes )

Yes

3. Does Allah have the power to change me so I can make different choices? (your answer: Yes).

Yes but you must make the effort and God will help you, for example God will make it easy for you to commit sin or have faith dependant on your choice

Given all the answers you give for the above questions, do you reall think
I can make choice other than what Allah has ordained for me? (Your answer: No)

Do you know what Allah has ordained for you? its not impossible that you will find faith

Then why is your Allah going to punish me? Seriously, man, think. Does all of this logic of yours really make sense to you? Help me and tell me what am I missing?

Your life is not over so you don't know if you will die a kafir or not, only god knows. If you die a kafir it was your inability to see the real truth of Allah's existence and so it will be your own doing.



Titu,
Titu your ability to reason has been compromised totally.

You say: "Yes but you must make the effort and God will help you, for example God will make it easy for you to commit sin or have faith dependant on your choice"

I can only make the effort if Allah had given me the ability to make that effort. Whether I have that ability or not has already been determined by 1. From the statistics of what has happened till now, most humans die as a kaffir. That is direct evidence that Allah creates more without that ability to make an effort.

You say: "Do you know what Allah has ordained for you? its not impossible that you will find faith"


It is only possible if Allah desires it so, and Allah has already decided that at the moment he created me, is it not? Even whether I make the effort is determined by Allah and he already knows whether I will even make the effort or not. So if I do make the effort it is because Allah wanted me to make that effort, and if I do not then it is because Allah had chosen it that way when he created me.

You say: "Your life is not over so you don't know if you will die a kafir or not, only god knows. If you die a kafir it was your inability to see the real truth of Allah's existence and so it will be your own doing."

But the life of many many those who have gone before me is over and they did die as kaffirs. And there are an awful lot of very very good humans among those. If Allah is roasting them in Hell because they accepted a God other than Allah then I accept the Hell they are being roasted in. I reject this vindictive and jealous Allah that burns good humans just because He did not give them the option to accept Him in the frist place.

doubtless.



To FFI
October 19, 2006

There is no good without faith. Every intention is to please God. If it is true that you will die a kafir there is no hope.
The prophet has said " Whoever Allah guides, none can misguide & whoever Allah misguides none can guide" so i guess what you say is true.

I suggest you repent to Allah before its too late

Don't let the Satan defeat you with his promise that God does not exist that would be sheer foolishness.

Take your chances doubtless but promise to think of me when the time comes because i wont be around to tell you i told you so, seriously.

The Boogeyman


Okay titu, thank you for your thoughts and kind wishes. I can only do what your Allah will allow me to do and for that he will punish me according to the logic I can grasp. So be it.

Best of luck to you,
doubtless.

To FFI
October 19, 2006

The logic is simple to grasp. If you forget god he will forget you, Simple as that. As i said before the most fundamental issue in Islam is pure monotheism. There are many many sacred hadiths that describe Allah as the most loving and compassionate EVEN to kafirs that is until the day of judgement when he will be more angry than he has ever been. I don't know you but i don't want to see you suffer, I tried to convince you but as i said before, Only Allah can guide who he chooses and i hope he will choose you, Sincerely. Please at least try to have an open view.


Dear Titu,

I can honestly and truthfully tell you that I have as an open a view on this that I can hold. As you say "Only Allah can guide who he chooses" and in that in my understanding you take things out of my hand and my "will". I have prayed and I have asked forgivenes and I have asked for guidance but the result so far has been 'nil'. My understanding and my brain and my logic just cannot wrap itself around the simple reasoning that I outline. Allah creates me knowing what I will choose, Allah chooses whether he will guide me or not, and he does this with all the Kaafirs that he will punish. I consider that unjust and wrong. My heart and my conscience screams at me and I will stand up to that injustice. I do not see what the Kaafirs could have possible done any different if Allah did not want them to do it in the first place!!! So I will accept the punishment that Allah has to dole out and I hope he will see the injustice and evil of it all. I view his behavior to be worse than the worst dictator ever. You act out of fear of Allah. Strange. But thank you for your concern. Believe it or not, I do worry for you and I truly hope that you will see reason and you will overcome this terrible fear of Allah. I just cannot believe that if I was created, I was created by someone of whom I should be terrified.

doubtless.


To FFI:

When i was younger i had many kafir freinds as i do now. I just couldn't understand why kafirs would go to hell and this concerned me alot. I didn't want to see the freinds i loved in that situation. But i have come to understand that the worst crime in the world is to deny God. As he says himself "I will forgive all sins accept shirk". You have to understand that kufr is seen by God as unforgivable and he has stated that the majority of mankind does not appreciate him and so he will fill hell with them. I do not know the future but Allah may choose to forgive whom he pleases. But i do know that the truth comes to everyone sometime in there life and we all have to make a decision to be steadfast in what we beleive in. Personally, I have always felt gods presence, It's natural. I hope in the future you may feel diffrently about this wonderfull existence good & bad, That maybe you will thank God for what you have.


Dear Titu,

You write:
"You have to understand that kufr is seen by God as unforgivable and he has stated that the majority of mankind does not appreciate him and so he will fill hell with them."


and hence you agree that your Allah will fill hell with the majority of mankind. But he creates every single man in the first place. I cannot help but wonder again and again why and what kind of Allah is this that creates knowing that he will torture for eternity "the majority" of his creation!!! My mind just cannot bring itself to accept a God like that. I know I am weak as an individual but I woulld like to ask God why does he create to torture those who could do nothing but what he had intended them to do in the first place. And I really really do not understand why shirk is such a big deal to Allah. If he is so powerful, so all knowing, etc. why does it matter if some stupid idiot of a human believes not in him but in someone else?

doubtless.


To FFI:


Dear Titu,
You write:
"You have to understand that kufr is seen by God as unforgivable and he has stated that the majority of mankind does not appreciate him and so he will fill hell with them."
and hence you agree that your Allah will fill hell with the majority of mankind. But he creates every single man in the first place. I cannot help but wonder again and again why and what kind of Allah is this that creates knowing that he will torture for eternity "the majority" of his creation!!!

We must go through the process of life on earth to understand why we will enter hell. The earth can delude humans into following there own desires. For that reason those that enter hell will totally understand why they are there in the first place. People have many chances in there life to seek the truth but instead choose to follow there own desires - even muslims.

My mind just cannot bring itself to accept a God like that. I know I am weak as an individual but I woulld like to ask God why does he create to torture those who could do nothing but what he had intended them to do in the first place. And I really really do not understand why shirk is such a big deal to Allah. If he is so powerful, so all knowing, etc. why does it matter if some stupid idiot of a human believes not in him but is someone else?

Allah can forgive all sins but takes special exception to shirk. Obviousley because he loves his creation to appreciate all the bounties bestowed on it.



Dear Titu,

Earthly life is less than a 100 years. For this period of time, Allah is going to torture for eternity? Does that make sense to you? Is that justice?

People have many chances in there life to seek the truth but instead choose to follow there own desires - even muslims.

What choice? He created them knowing what they will choose, and they are incapable of choosing anything other than what He chose for them in the first place. He chooses who he will guide .. that is what you said. So what choice? Every thought I have has been chosen for me by Allah. How can I choose? Even if I lie, it is because Allah has chosen that for me. He knows at the time of creation that is what I will do, and he had the power to change that but he did not. So what choice.

"Obviousley because he loves his creation to appreciate all the bounties bestowed on it."

This is love? Horrible torture for eternity in exchange of 100 years on earth with no real choice and created to die as a kaffir? So powerful that Allah cannot tolerate ingrateful slaves? Even humans are known to tolerate ungrateful subordinates because they are stupid, but not Allah!! And you reall think that is love?

I swear Titu I wish I could understand how you can possibly, possibly find what you are saying even remotely rational and reasonable. I do not fathom the religious mind.

doubtless.


To FFI:

I understand where your coming from but you have a misunderstanding. Let me explain, We have chosen whether we believe or not - Allah knows what we will choose but has not prevented us from making our choices, If non can guide except Allah it is because he has in my opinion chosen only those who are sincerely seeking the truth. There is choice that is why we have freedom, Satan himself said to Allah " I will take many of your slaves to hell except your beleieving slaves", Satan is our enemy not God, He will do everything in his power to turn humans into kafirs. Every person is responsible for there actions, Allah has given us the means to do right or wrong - the choice is ours, we have the intellect to choose.





To Titu:

Titu you write:

I understand where your coming from but you have a misunderstanding. Let me explain, We have chosen whether we believe or not - Allah knows what we will choose but has not prevented us from making our choices, If non can guide except Allah it is because he has in my opinion chosen only those who are sincerely seeking the truth. There is choice that is why we have freedom, Satan himself said to Allah " I will take many of your slaves to hell except your beleieving slaves", Satan is our enemy not God, He will do everything in his power to turn humans into kafirs. Every person is responsible for there actions, Allah has given us the means to do right or wrong - the choice is ours, we have the intellect to choose.

I have read that logic many a times and it still does not make sense and let me see if I can explain it. Allah creats us. What does that mean to you? He creats our physical characteristics, our mental characteristics, our emotional and intellectual capabilites etc. He creates our "soul". That means how well I can reason what I can think, how I will feel, etc. has been created by Allah. Now he also knows at the moment he creats me with all those propensities what are going to be my choices. He KNOWS. He knows that while I was not even a gleam in my fathers eyes as they say. Now let us say for some reason I did not choose one of those choices but chose something else. That means that Allah was wrong. He did not know. Now that is impossible for he is Allah, and hence I must choose what he knew I would choose even before I was born. Given that the poor kaafirs and murtads can only choose what they are destined to choose. He has not prevented us from making our choices but where is the freedom to change the choice that He knew we would choose. He knew before I was born whether I will sincerely seek the truth or not, he knew before I was born whether I will become a murtad or not, I may think I have the choice but I am told by good pious muslims all the time that Allah knew before I was born what my choices are going to be. Where is the freedom in there? You are a slave who was created to be loyal, and I was created a slave to be rebellious. You were created to go to heaven for eternity and I was one created to burn in Hell. Now muslims ask me what prevents me from submitting now so I won't go to hell. And frankly the answer is simple, Ask your Allah. I do not find the thoughts, the desire, the urge, the need appearing within me to go down that path. Instead I find a bewilderment that this whole argument you lay down does not make sense. It does not make sense. That is what comes up from within me. If there is an allah then that is what he is putting in me. Do you understand? I see very good kaffirs and I am told they will go to hell. I am told I will go to hell. And I keep saying, this does not make sense. Titu it really really does not make sense. This is a con and I keep seeing you and so many other muslims taken in by that con. And I keep asking myself again and again, how the heck do I get you guys out of this stupid con. But I find that for what ever the reason you and many others are unwilling to allow yourself to reason and think. You have to believe in Allah, you have to submit, you have to be afraid of hell.
Before the modern internet, a guy like me would not even be allowed to say as much as I have. The true believers would have killed me. It is a con and any who starts seeing that it is a con and start wondering has to be eliminated right away. That is brainwashing. That is the technique of a violent cult. And I wish I know how to reach you, how to reach the humanity within you. How do I penetrate the programming that you have gone through? That is what comes up from within me. How do I shake you and make you think?

doubtless.


To FFI:
October 20, 2006

The thing is i willingly submit & and i don't choose to be rebelliouse. I appreciate Allah & all i have been given. I have a choice & it has nothing to do with fear but the truth. I truly believe in Allah that is the difffrence between you & me. No fear, Just the truth. I may also go to hell there is no real guarantee i will enter paradise but i submit because of my love admiratiion, appreciation but most of all acknowlegement. I beleive in Allah because i want to, Thats what you don't seem to understand, Ok you say there is no choice - your right, my choice comes naturally to believe thats where you could say i have no choice but to adhere to the truth. There is a God, His name is Allah - He deserves our worship, Forget him & he will forget you, get it?



Titu,
Try to understand, then, that just as you feel it natural and easy for you, that it is natural and easy for me to question and reject Islam. For that, Islam and muslims have and still do kill humans. Because of that, I cannot understand and cannot believe that Allah is the real God. Too much violence has been done in the past and in the present to bring Islam to people everywhere. That has to be wrong.

doubtless.

To FFI
October 22, 2006

Titu,
Try to understand, then, that just as you feel it natural and easy for you, that it is natural and easy for me to question and reject Islam. For that, Islam and muslims has and still does kill humans.

Muslims are part of the human race. Humans kill each other no matter what you believe. It doesn't show intelligence to blame Islam for all murder in the world.

Because of that, I cannot understand and cannot believe that Allah is the real God. Too much violence has been done in the past and in the present to bring Islam to people everywhere. That has to be wrong.

It sounds like you live in a world where Islam is to blame for every problem, That is a mental condition i hope you recover from.



To Titu:


Muslims are part of the human race. Humans kill each other no matter what you believe. It doesn't show intelligence to blame Islam for all murder in the world.

What you say is true and I do not dispute that. But that is not what I was asking. I want to know why when an apostate for the way Allah has made him and what Allah has put in his heart truly and sincerely and truthfully believes that Islam is wrong and no longer wants to be a muslim, why does Islam and muslim still insist on killing the apostates? Why do muslims want to kill apostates?

It sounds like you live in a world where Islam is to blame for every problem, That is a mental condition i hope you recover from.


You are not answering my questions. Faith and belief in Islam comes easily and naturally to you. I say fine. The kaafirs say fine. Now for what ever reason, belief in Islam does not come easily to me, but doubts about it come to me naturally. For that why do muslims want to kill me? Tell me why should I be killed for being an apostate?

doubtless.


To FFI:
OCtober 23, 2006

I have to admit that i would need to do alot of research before i could answer that question, Is it compulsory to kill apostates? Is there a consensus among all muslims that apostates should be killed? Is there no alternative?




Titu,

The Sharia as given by ALL the five madhabs of Islam agree that an unrepentant apostate be put to death. Do your research and do tell me what you find for I really would like to know. Thank you for being honest. No compulsion in religion on one hand but repent or die on the other?

doubtless