Manal Ali vs FFI Staff
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PDF versionFrom: Manal Ali To: faithfreedom2@gmail.com, ffisubmission@gmail.com
Date: Apr 11, 2006 4:09 PM
Bismillah erahman eraheem
Asalamu alekum!
First of all i want to know who u really are? Are u a muslim or not or u are one but u dont really believe in islam cuz u think its nonsense but u believe in it cuz of the miracles Allah sent to us. Its so contradictory dont u think. U believe, so u have faith, but want ur freedom.
U think if u believe in islam u dont have any freedom? How can u speak so badly about our prophet (pbuh). He had the best characters of all humankind. He who has never spoken badly to anyone, who has never cheated anyone, who has never lied to anyone. Even before Islam he has never drank alcohool nor has he had anything with women, nor did he pray to stones and wood. And when islam came he suffered so much. Although everyone insulted him and laughed at him, through stones at him till he got wounded and spat at him, put shit in front of his door and garbage, he prayed to God to forgive them cuz they dont know what they are doing. Can u imagine this? Would u ever behave like this? Thats why so many people converted to Islam, because of his fabulous character also. First i wanted to insult u and tell u bloody bastard how dare u speak about our prophet like this, but i said to myself no follow the path of cor prophet (pbuh).
Secondly the miracle of all miracles u call a lie? The quran a lie? No no. In every way its a miracle, if u see it from the linguistic way, from the meanings, from the choice of the words, from the grammar everything is great. Nobody can ever write like that. It is the guide for our life. Even Christians take the quran when they want to deal with inheretence cuz its so well explained in quran how much who should get. U wont find that in Bible or elsewhere.
Quran tells u how to deal with ur brothers and sisters, with ur partner neighbour family in the state everything. IF peeple would know the truth picture of our Islam then so many people would convert. But unfortunately we live in a very bad world, where everyone is against us Muslims. Noone wants that the Muslim unite and form a khalifa state. Because they know if we do that ( and in sha allah this day will come), all the other countries will be ruined in every way economically, socially, and many people will convert to Islam. But what do the media do, they talk only about islam in combination with terrorism. And thats not true. Who said women should be killed if they dont obey their husbands? Thast not true. And i agree that someone should be killed if he killed someone else or that the zani should be punished. Look at the punishments here. I just cant believe it. A serial killer gets i dont know some years in jail and if he is good he will come out earlier. Then he will go on and kill again. Why do u think do we have in western society so many rapes, killings, murders, child abuse? There are no punishements. U know i read one french judge, retired and when he had read a lot about religions he saw that punishements in islam are much more better than in france or christianity i mean. So he converted to islam. And its really amazing how many people convert to islam although they hear so bad impressions and our reputation is so bad now. I read in german newspaper that the year before last year 1000 germans converted to islam. And its so nice when people convert to islam they will be so faithfull. In aljazeera they show often about americans converting to islam. During the iraq war so many soldiers converted. But of course the media wont say all this. If want to hear these news u have to read a lot from many sources.
I was talking about Quran. If u say that it is nonsense, then u havent read it carefully and havent understood it, or u must have read some translation. I agree when u read translation it wont come out as if u read it in arabic. It makes no sense thats true. But u must read the interpretation the explanations. So many scientists also converted when they discovered sth that was already written in quran. Once one english man saw a documentary about astronauts americans and british. They said that they got substance from the moon and they found out that the moon was in former times two halves. When the watcher knew that this was written in quran he converted. There are many many stories and it cant be just a pure chance. Luis Amstrong heard athan on the moon and when he knew thats the prayer for muslims to go to mosque he converted. I think i cant convince u in this because i am not a good convincer and because we know only too little ofwhat Allah knows. But iam not only sure but 100 % sure of the fact that Islam is the right religion. U may laugh about me or all the others who wrote to u and delete our mails. No problem. Allah says in surat elmutaffefen. Those who do crimes (like urs) they will laugh at those who believe. But that day those who believe will laugh at those who dont believe. And as the proverb says those who laughs last laughs best. So be carefull what u say and write. I am not worried about myself cuz u cant convince me and u wont convince anyone who has a strong faith. Alhamdu lillah our islamic umma is getting bigger and bigger and people these days are getting more and more faithfull, although there are so many externalities, negative externalities who try to get them away from their believes. So many of my friends didnt even pray. Now they pray and wear scarf.
And one day will come when we will be all joined our whole umma. Allah said it in surat enaser and our prophet pbuh said it to his companians that we will open Constantinople and Roma. So his companians said which one first he said Constantinople which is known as Istanbul today.
So dont worry naser will come and it will come soon cuz yom elkeyama is
soon.
I am telling u again be careful what u do. U are playing with the fire. I can only warn u. Because it is a muslimss job to warn those who are wrong of punishment and to tell those who are right that they will be rewarded in sha Allah. Allah is very merciful but he is a big punisher also. And the munafequen are those who will be punished at the lowest of jahanam.
I can recommend u following sites:
http://www.harunyahya.com
www.islam-guide.com
there are millions of other sites also. Alhamdu lillah
Alekum esalam
Manal Ali,
AliSina is very busy and I am helping out. You make all these claims about muhammed, your prophet, but the history and the original sources that I have read give a very different image. AliSina has laid out the charges against muhammed, and he gives his sources from the Islamic scriptures. It is quotations from the Sahih Hadeeth, Tabari's or Waqidi's history of Islam, or the Sira by ibn Ishaq. The forum has many ex-muslims who have cast off the cult of islam's brainwashing and been able to see that what most muslims offer is propoganda like you. Why don't you merely show that AliSina is wrong by showing where in the Islamic scriptures does it show that a muhammed like you claim exist. You can post your arguments on the Forum and all the ex-muslim members then can see that AliSina is full of hot air. How about it? If you cannot do that, then read and think for yourself. Muslims are killing more muslims around the world than anyone else. Just 55 blown up in Karachi today. Is this what you mean by islam is growing fast? Now tell us, the ex-muslims, where in the original sources do you see the kind and merciful muhammed you talk about. Muslims have been killing others since the time of muhammed and have not ever stopped. When you run out of non-muslims then you start killing ahameddiya, or the shias, or the alveis, or the ismailis, or whoever happens to be around.
Harun Yayah or Adnan Okhtar is a fake and you may want to contact Edip Yuksel to get the real dope on Adnan.
Doubtless
Salam!
I thank you for your reply. But its really a pity that you doubt the existence of our beloved prophet pbuh . His grave is in Medina you can visit it. You talk about original sources. Can there be a more original source than the quran. You believe in your sources and you dont believe in the quran. You talk about ahadith, so from where should they come the ahadith?
The hadith is what our prophet pbuh said. Why do you think the sources you refer to are correct and true and you think the quran is not true? You say you take your sources from islamic scriptures like the sira by ibn ishaq. The sira is the life of our prophet pbuh. So when you take sources from it it means that you believe in his life. But later you say that you doubt his existence. You contradict yourself.
It seems you do not understand my english. AliSina uses the Hadeeth, the Sira, and the Quran to level charges against muhammed your prophet.
You say Muslims are terrorists. If a Muslim is said to be a terrorist then why should he kill another Muslim. If he is made to kill then he would kill the kufar, those who dont believe. Its not logic what you say. Do you really believe that all the poor Muslims in Iraq or Palestine or whereever are killed by Muslims??? Yes the media say so i know but come on this is only propaganda. They want us to believe that muslims are bad and that Islam is a terroistic religion. But i know what happens. You think the Amerikans are in Iraq to establish a democratic state and to help the iraqis? No way. They create all these problems and kill inocent people and blame the Muslims. I know an Iraqi friend. His family must live with weapons and everybody goes out with a weapon, because you dont know anytime some amerikan soldiers can just come into your house and take you away or kill you with no reason.
These people they have no merci. They go over bodies. Once they will bomb a shia city so that everyone blame the sunis then they will bomb a suni city so that they think shias took revenge.
You seem to be turkish. There was a sucicide bombing in Pakistan last week. Deobandi Sunni blew himself up to kill 55 Barelewi Sunni Muslims. Is that being done by the Americans as well? Open your eyes and see the world. You are indulging in conspiracy theories. Blame everyone else except yourself. Iraqis muslims are killing each other, afghani muslims are killing each other, pakistani muslims are killing each other, sudanese muslims are killing each other, yemeni muslims are killing each other and you want to blame the americans?
Open your eyes people! History is repeting itsself. The USA they want to avoid that Muslims have their own state. They took all efforts to destroy the othmanic kalifat. They did that with the soviets also and then with the Muslims. Then they created their own states like Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc and put in each presidents which they chose, someone who could obey them like a marionette we say. And these people why should they say no. They get so much money a castle everything they want only to obey to Amerika and never do sth against. And when people like Saddam come and do sth else they wanted they will be attacked immediately. Thats politics! We live in a world of corruption. As long there is no islamic state we will never win this battle and we can never heal the world.
Americans had nothing to do with the Othmanic caliphate coming to an end. That was the british and the french. If muslims want a caliphate then they should have it. First the muslims need to stop killing each other. Do you what the pakistani muslims did to the bengali muslims in 1971? The pakistanis killed 3 million and you want to blame that on america as well?
The worse is that everyone in this world believes these stupid amerikans. But i know people in Iraq they are much more worse off than under Saddam. I know many Iraqis who say that. Now there are bringing out this stupid tape of the hijackers of 9/11. 5 years after they are bringing it out, now they are coming with it after they nicely polished everything. I read the story in bbc about the testimony of this Sheikh Mohammad. Its so fake. As if they invented all these names and stories. I have never heard anyone called turabi or urduni, so stupid. And its so confusing. And as if that Sheikh Mohammad remembers that everything happend exactly like that, who travelled where, who met whom and when, what they planned and all. Such a nonsense. And this tape is so fake also. As if they purpusly put Allah is the greatest, it just doesnt fil. This whole 9/11 story is a big big suspect. If they really wanted to hit Amerika then they would have hit the white house but not inocent people. And why go so far? If they really wanted to do sth in the name of islam they would have hit Israel. Everything is so illogic for us of course. For others they will only pitty the people who died in that 9/11 attack. Because they dont know that each day Palestinians get killed by Israeli soldiers, that children have to take their lessons outside cuz their school was destroyed that people in Gaza are waiting for so many days for food to come in because Israel troops have closed the borders and not allow anything to come in. They dont know that in Iraq people say to each other in sha allah we see each other again before they go out cuz they dont know if they will come back alive. But thats only 1% of the whole story.
As I said it is easy to blame someone else than to see the problem in your own self.
You like to believe in conspiracies.
Islam is not a terroristic religion but because of the bad world we are in it gives us the impression that it is. Islam doesnt teach us to attack anyone but if we are attacked we shoudl defend ourselves. You say Muslims have been killing since our prophet pbuh but thats not true.
How many of the first four Caliphas assasinated? Were they assasinated by kaffirs or by muslims? Did Aiesha fight Ali in the battle of the camel? How many muslims killed muslims in that battle? Did the Hassan and Hussain fight Yazid and Muwaiyya or not? Was the muslims fighting muslims or what? How much of muslim history do you want me to list for you? Did Abu Bakr fight the ridda wars because "muslims" did not want to pay zakat and he declared them as kaffirs and fought them. They considered themselves as muslims. Ahmediyyas consider themselves as muslims but pakistani sunnis kill them because they consider them as kaffirs in the present. Or perhaps that is also the Americans fault?
ovie alresala, the message. It shows how Muslims were humiliated and attacked by the quraishis. People were tortured cuz they converted to Islam. Sidna Bilal was thrown into desert on the hot sand and heavy stones where put on his body to leave islam but he never did. Sumaya and Al Yaser were the first martyers in Islam. I really have to tear when i think about it. You only see the bad things in the Muslims because you never think about the reasons and of the prestory of it. Of course they killed but they had to in order to protect themselves. And with Allahs help they won. Mulsims were always less but with Allahs help they won the battles against the kufar.
When we talk about futuhat people will think about Muslims attacking other countries and killing inocent people. But thats not true. Muslims never attacked and they never harmed old people, women or children and they always treated their prosioners well. But it was our message to spread Islam. Allah sent Mohammad pbuh to the whole mankind to spread Islam unlike other
You do not know your Islamic history very well. And muslims like to tear up easily on ignorance. Islam went from spain to china in less than 25 years after muhammed and that was never attacking anyone? Muslims did not attack the persians? Muslims did not attack the Byzantinians? Muslims did not attack Spain? Muslims did not attack India? What kind of lies do they teach you?
prophets who should spread their message only to their tribe. But thats why prophet Muhammad pbuh was so special and should be the last prophet. His message is to all the mankind. In quran Allah says ya ayuha enas, you the pepole. So Muslims went to open the countries peacefully to spread the Islam and they opend whole Spain and for 800 years Muslims Christians and Jews lived in peace under the Muslims. They have all the same rights.And so many people converted. And some countries like in Indonesia and Malaysia people converted only by trading with Mulsims. Muslims didnt even have to go there and spread Islam. Its amazing.
Please read the history of Spain. Treating the jews and christians as second class citizens and forcing them to pay jizziya in humiliation is your sense of justice?
Islamic history is very nice. But of course in western countries it will never be tought like that.
You talk about the Muslims but i tell you sth Christians and Jews have never stopped killing. Just look at what the Crusadors did, they did masacres killing without merci raping women abusing children. Thats why in belad asham Syria lebanon etc Arabs are so blond its can be refered back to the Crusadors. And nowadays they are killing and blaming Mulsims. Its a disaster. Palestinians are called terrorists instead of Israelis because they are defending their own land. Iraquis are called terrorists because they are protecting themselves agains Amerikans. And when one or two Muslims commit terroristic attacks then they say all the Muslims are like that. I dont say that Mulsims who kidnapp journalists and kill them is right. But no wonder that these people go mad. I mean take a dog and start beating him every day.
If one day he comes attacks you and bites you to death what will people say?
But our victory will come one day in sha allah and that day i want to see
peoples faces when they come to know the truth. I mean even the meaning of islam comes from salam which means peace. Please Allah forgive them because they dont know! Amen!
Manal
You are repeating propoganda and not historical facts. You are lying about Islamic history or you are totally ignorant about it.
Doubtless.
Salam!
>It seems you do not understand my english. AliSina uses the Hadeeth, the
>Sira, and the Quran to level charges against muhammed your prophet.
>
Yes i dont understand u very well. What do u mean by level charges against
our prophet pbuh? U say Ali Sina uses the Hadeeth and the Sira. But why
should they speak sth against our prophet pbuh? The hadeeth comes from the
prophet himself pbuh, so why should he say sth against himself? And the sira
of ibn ishaq doesnt give any bad idea of our prophet pbuh. I have seen the
book. It tell the same fabulous story as the other siras also. Please tell
me where in the quran Allah ta3ala puts Mohammad pbuh in a bad picture?
>
>You seem to be turkish. There was a sucicide bombing in Pakistan last
>week. Deobandi Sunni blew himself up to kill 55 Barelewi Sunni Muslims.
>Is
>that being done by the Americans as well? Open your eyes and see the
>world. You are indulging in conspiracy theories. Blame everyone else
>except yourself. Iraqis muslims are killing each other, afghani muslims
>are
>killing each other, pakistani muslims are killing each other, sudanese
>muslims are killing each other, yemeni muslims are killing each other and
>you want to blame the americans?
No, iam not turkish. Iam palestinian but we live in Jordan now.
Who told u that the suicide bombings in Pakistan were done by Muslims? I
dont blame the Americans for that but i dont blame the Muslims for that
also. Until now nobody has claimed responsibilty about the attacks.
Iam not indulging in conspirancy theories. Its a fact.
Why do u blame the muslim people? If they are faithful Muslims who know that
they will go into hell if they kill their brothers in Islam, why should they
attack other Muslims like the bombings in the hotels in Amman where the
wedding was changed into a funeral. And if really Muslims had done it why
did the jordanian police warn all the Americans and Israelis in these hotels
to go out before the attacks? Why should Muslims kill other Muslims just
because they are Sunnis or Shias? I dont know about what u call Deobandi
Sunnis and Barelewi Sunnis. I know that there are only sunnis and shia. And
both are Muslims. We dont make a difference in that. But ahameddiyas,
alveis, ismailis, or other groups are not considered as Muslims. They
deviated from Islam.
Yes u r right by saying Muslims kill Muslims, but there is a difference
between the Muslim people who practice and between the rulers who rule over
these people. They are munafeqeen, because they show that they are
practicing Muslims but on the other side they dont behave in the Muslims
interests. Instead they help the western countries to act against the Muslim
interests. They are those who deteriorate the picture of islam and because
of them people think muslims were terrorists. But if people would know the
real Islam and how it must be practiced they will doubt their own believes.
>
>
>Americans had nothing to do with the Othmanic caliphate coming to an end.
>That was the british and the french. If muslims want a caliphate then they
>should have it. First the muslims need to stop killing each other. Do you
>what the pakistani muslims did to the bengali muslims in 1971? The
>pakistanis killed 3 million and you want to blame that on america as well?
>
First we have to get rid of our corrupt leaders. I dont only blame Americans
in general. I blame primarily the arab leaders who go hand in hand with our
enemies. And those last i blame most, because they are Muslims who show to
public that they pray and fast and are concernd about muslim people in
Palestine and Iraq, but in fact they themselves help the Americans continue
their war in Iraq and Palestine. They are not concerned about them because
they are only concernd about money and status. They would do anything for
money. I wouldnt wonder if they have special groups who do suicide bombings
and later condemn them and blame "muslim terrorists".
All these countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, Yemen,
Palestine, Jordan and so on they are fake. They shouldnt be there. They are
created by the west (Sikes and Picot as u said). These states are puppet
regimes whose leaders were put by the west in order to act in their
interests and not in the interests of the muslim people. They should prevent
the spread of islam, prevent the union of muslims, deteriorate the picture
of islam kill inocent muslims to give a bad image of islam, brainwash young
muslims by their unuseful tv and radio programms. Instead of giving
information about what really happens in Iraq and Palestine they show what
their leader did and what "great job" he performed. Instead of showing
programms and teaching about Islam and islamic history they show programms
like superstar and star academy. Young Muslims shoudl indulge in the music
and dancing. They should know the songs played by heart instead of knowing
the suras of quran and they should know about the lives of the stars instead
of knowing about the sira of our prophet pbuh. At school in subject religion
they cut those verses of quran that speak about israel. In history they
teach us about European and American history instead of islamic history.
Thats the corrupt strategy of our countries and its achieving its aim,
unfortunately.
In return these leaders get much money and a high status. Do u know how much
one of these leaders receive? I think a couple of thousands of dollars a
day. Do u know how many castles the king of SA has? Dont count. King of
Jordan flies every weekend to Las Vegas and spends millions of dollars while
his people beg on the street. In UAE they build island in the form of a palm
in the sea, hotels like burj elarab where the best suits have a swimming
pool inside and everything is out of gold, they built a huge ice stadium in
the middle of the desert. And for what all this i ask myself?
People are starving and loosing their homes, getting killed, have no water,
electricity etc. The whole budget of one of those leaders would be enough to
remove poverty in the whole arab world.
And u think these people are good Muslims?
>
>As I said it is easy to blame someone else than to see the problem in your
>own self.
>You like to believe in conspiracies.
>
Yes the problem lies in ourselves. We have to get rid of the fake Muslims
who rule over us firstly then only we can be accepted.
Once a great alem said that u can never convince anyone to Islam unless u
practice it urself the way it should. So if u dont practice how u want to
convince someone that what u actually should do is right and how do u want
him to practice it?
>How many of the first four Caliphas assasinated? Were they assasinated by
>kaffirs or by muslims? Did Aiesha fight Ali in the battle of the camel?
>How many muslims killed muslims in that battle? Did the Hassan and Hussain
>fight Yazid and Muwaiyya or not? Was the muslims fighting muslims or what?
>How much of muslim history do you want me to list for you? Did Abu Bakr
>fight the ridda wars because "muslims" did not want to pay zakat and he
>declared them as kaffirs and fought them. They considered themselves as
>muslims. Ahmediyyas consider themselves as muslims but pakistani sunnis
>kill them because they consider them as kaffirs in the present. Or perhaps
>that is also the Americans fault?
Three of them were assasinated, Omar, Othman and Ali (r). Of course those
who assasinated them couldnt be good muslims, because which faithful muslim
would assasinate a caliph? Of course they were kaffirs who were against the
muslims or they were murtadden, because many people left Islam after our
prophets death pbuh. But a prophet is also a human, he is not some angle who
lives for ever. And do u know how Abu Baker(r) died? He died shortly after
our prophet pbuh and u know why? Because he was once bid by a snake when
they were in the cave and whenever he had pain, the prophet pbuh only had to
put his spit on the wound and so it went. But when the prophet pbuh died
nobody could cure Abu Baker (r).
Yes the battle of the camel i know it, the battle of Basra. And history
books are full of wrong stories about it. Again another sign. People want to
put islam in a bad light. La hawla wala kuata illa bellah.
Aisha's and Ali's men (r) fought with ignorance against each other. The
kawarejes, those who killed Othman (r) were those who caused the fight
because both Ali and Aisha (r) wanted to punish them according to sharia. So
the kawarejis caused them to fight against each other by telling each group
that the other group had attacked them but in fact they attacked them.
Of course Muslims killed Muslims that time, but u must make a difference
between good muslims and bad muslims, those who seek fighting and spreading
out lies and those who seek for the truth.
Ali (r) tried to stop this war but nobody listened to him. His time as a
caliph was the worst because he spent it only in wars. His wish was to unite
the Muslims again but Muslims started to seek their own interests instead of
the interest of the umma. And thats the problem which still exists today.
Mu’awiyah and Yazid were evil by nature because they were born of and bred
by evil parents who were inveterate enemies of The Prophet SAWW and of
Al-Islam. The benu umayas were against our prophet pbuh and attacked him
with all methods and their leader was Abu Sufyan. Muawiya was leading a
terror regime in Syria. He wanted to be caliph instead of Ali (r). The
caliph must be elected by the majority of the people. But the banu ummaya
wanted to follow their own interests instead of those of the umma. So they
fought many wars against Ali and later against Al hassan and alhussain (r)
in order to take the caliphate. U dont know about the terrible massacre in
Karbala where Yazid killed alhussain and all his family? The reading of this
story can make someone cry really. How they killed men and children, raped
women. Then when Yazid got his caliphate by power he led a terror regime. U
see history is repeating itself. Just the same as today. A good caliphate
was only under the 5 caliphes rashideen.
Abu Baker (r) had to fight redda wars, because anyone who converts from
islam has to be killed according to sharia. He was right in doing that.
Paying zakat is one of the pillars of islam. Its an obligation. Who doesnt
pay it is not a ful muslim.
Alhamadiyas are not muslims as i said they deviated from islam.
>>You do not know your Islamic history very well. And muslims like to tear
>>up
>easily on ignorance. Islam went from spain to china in less than 25 years
>after muhammed and that was never attacking anyone? Muslims did not attack
>the persians? Muslims did not attack the Byzantinians? Muslims did not
>attack Spain? Muslims did not attack India? What kind of lies do they
>teach you?
>
We dont consider islamic futuhat as attacks. Its a way of spreading our
religion to teach others about it. Muslims dont force anyone to accept
islam. We only make dawa and dawa means invitation into our religion. We
invite u to be part of us but its ur choice wether to be it or not. We dont
force u. Muslims wanted to spread knowledge of islam because that was their
message from Allah.
But we are not like these jehova witnesses who dont take part in any fight
even if their brothers are being attacked. We defend ourselves in the name
of Allah.
>>Please read the history of Spain. Treating the jews and christians as
>second class citizens and forcing them to pay jizziya in humiliation is
>your
>sense of justice?
>
Non muslims who want to live peacefully in an islamic caliphate should pay
jizzya. The amount of what they have to pay is nothing compared to the
amount of taxes governments are taking out of peoples pockets nowadays.
Jizzya is like a tax. In return they receive protection, knowledge, same
rights and everything. People were living happily side by side in Spain.
Neither jews or christians complained about the treatment of muslims towards
them.
IF they dont want to pay it then why do they live in islamic country? If i
go and live in another country i also have to pay tax to the government.
>>You are repeating propoganda and not historical facts. You are lying
>>about
>Islamic history or you are totally ignorant about it.
Iam not lying about islamic history. idont know everything about it but what
i know i believe its true because all the ulama whom i read say the same
thing and they refer on ahadeeth saheha and sharefa and qudseye. I dont know
the ahadeeth u refer to because there are many weak ones also.
But the scholars to whom i refer they never used to write a hadeeth unless
they make completely sure of the whole life story of all the former
recitators. If there was only one tiny lie or mistake they wouldnt take the
hadeeth. And i believe in our 4 imams, ashafey, almaliki, abu hanefa and abu
hanbal. And i refer to quran. One alem said once if u dont know refer first
to quran.
And i know people like u are just influenced by the west who want to talk
badly about islam in any way and they will go over bodies to do that because
they hate us.
Salam Manal
You can read for yourself what AliSina has to say about your prophet and Islam at Sina
You can read what the editorial in a Pakistani newspaper says about the killing in Karachi
dailytimes
While the MMA was busy making a case for the MQM's involvement in the Nishtar Park massacre on the occasion of Eid Milad un Nabi, President Pervez Musharraf in his familiar style has called it a "sectarian incident". By that he didn't mean Shia-Sunni but Sunni-Sunni. But the IG in Karachi is still "defensive" about the issue and is employing the rhetoric of "someone wants to divide the nation". Yet the evidence made public so far points to suicide bombing, which, in turn, is taken to mean that a sectarian fanatic "laid down his life for Islam". The MMA was greatly put off by it and insisted that the MQM had fixed the bomb underneath the stage and exploded it with a remote control.
The truth is quite different and it relates to the evolution of Karachi as a mega-city of steadily intensifying religiosity. Talking to Geo TV (April 17, 2006) Mufti Munib ur Rehman — the Barelvi cleric who heads our moon-sighting committee for Eid days and who was once roughed up by Deobandi ulema on the committee on difference of faith — stated that hundreds of mosques in the city were disputed between sects, and there had been violent confrontation over them in many cases. This was no Shia-Sunni conflict but a Sunni-Sunni one between Barelvis and Deobandis.
In pakistan not only shia sunni kill each other but even sunni sects are killing each other. You keep saying muslims cannot kill other muslims and you history says otherwise. Muslims have always been killing muslims. Do you know that in muslim history it is very common for the leader to be assasinated. Muslims do not have a way for changing their governments peacefully. You blame your leaders for corruption. When have the muslim leaders not been corrupt? Now don't go back to the fairy tales of the Shahaba. You should read Ali Dashti 23 years and see how rich they became and what did the common person get from all that looting? Not much. You want to have a united umma. Hope you get it. When in Islamic history has the ummah been united? Again I suspect that you will tell me stories and not actual Islamic history. You see you can make the difference between good muslim and bad muslims. Each side always say the other side is bad muslims. That is the problem, that there are always bad muslims. But those who do the killing and beheading, they think they are very good muslims and they are going to get a reward for the Shahaadat. So by your own account the only good calipha have been the rashedeen and that was 1400 years ago. Have the muslims had any good leaders since then?
The world thinks that it is barbaric that someone who does not want to stay muslim should be killed according to Sharia. Why should they be killed? Why force someone to stay muslim when they donot want to stay muslim? Now many many muslims are leaving Islam because they do not think Islam is a good religion.
Manal I do not hate the muslims. The world is too small for us to hate each other. We have to learn to live peacefully as friends. My relatives are muslims. Many people I love are muslims. But I do not like Islam because it is the reason for most of the problems that muslims find themselves in. You have been lied to since your childhood and you believe in all the lies. But open your eyes and see and read and think.
Doubtless
Salam!
Iam sorry but I dont agree with you. You cannot convince me and I cannot
convince you.
But nobody is to be blamed for that and we wont hate each other for that. I
also have many non muslim friends and relatives and i dont hate them. My
mother is christian and i love her a lot.
But its Allah's wish. He gave us different keys and we have to find out
which one is the original key. Just like the play "Natan the wise" by
Lessing. He talks about a father who has one key but 3 sons. He wants to
leave the key after his death to all the sons. So he makes two other copies
of the key and hands them over to his sons without telling them which one is
the original because he wants them to find out on their own and convince the
others about it. Lessing is refering to the three religions.
I just wanted to say that the problem doesnt lie in Islam or in Christianity
or in Jewism nor in Quran or Bible or Thora, but the problem lies in the
people of this world.
Salam
Manal
Thank you for your gentle words. Yes, Manal, we have to figure out how to live peacefully in this very small world of ours. I have given up believing in any religion. There are more than three keys in this world. There is Buddhism, hinduism, Zorastrians, Sikhaims, among others as well. I have faith in whatever is true. Science clearly and definitively shows us that the story of Adam and Eve is just a story and cannot be true. Man evolved over tens of millions of years and the fossil records are now filling in the evolutionary history. So the religions that start with Hadrath Aadam are right off the bat starting with myths like children stories. Similarly stories about Hadrath Moosa have been shown to be myths as well. They are not real. But many people believe in them and unfortunately fight and kill each other over them.
Doubtless
Salam
Yes we have to figure out how to live peacefully but we also have to figure
out which way is the right way that guides us to Allah or God. When we found
the righty way then only we can live peacefully.
I dont believe in evolution theory. If u believe in it then u deny the
existence of God. It cannot be true that everything was created by itsself.
Even if sth has evoluted from another and that one also from another and so
on but the very first thing must have been created because it cannot come
from nothing. Everything in this universe is so exact and balanced that
there must be a much higher power over us who made it. And all these
scientists who believe in evolution theory they have been critized by so
many people and it could have been proved that they are wrong.
Ali Sina has a nice page about miracles of God. If u look at it u cant
believe that it was an accident.
Accidents happen but not everything is an accident, cant be.
Yes in order to believe u must believe in sth written. Yes for someone who
doesnt believe in sth written its very difficult for him to believe. We
believe in Adam and Moosa because its written in the quran so we dont ask
why. Of course Allah has his reasons for everything but in some things he
didnt explain to us. He just wants us to believe in him. Thats why its very
difficult to explain to someone why we believe in this or that because we
were not the ones who wrote it.
Its similar to language. When u are born u grow up with the language ur
mother and father speak. U learn it by hearing so u dont learn the rules for
it. Of course at school u will be taught grammar and all but u dont ask why
the very comes before the noun or sth like that. U understand what i mean?
For someone who wants to learn a language he will ask why this noun is now
feminin and not masculin because he wasnt brought up with it and has learnt
it by hearing. And some languages are very difficult and very confusing and
unlogic also. So if u ask some native speaker why this is so and so he will
say i dont know its like that u have to learn it by heart.
I have gone through this experience because my mother tongue is German and
people who start to learn German come and ask me things in grammar i have
never heard of. But for them they need a rule in order to learn. And with
religion its the same. People need more than the quran to believe. They are
not able yet to read between the lines like we do and understand its
meaning.
Salam
Manal
Yes there are many people like yourself who do not believe in evolution. There are many conservative christians as well who are stuck with the fact that evolution is in direct contradiction with the story of creation in the Jewish-Christian-Islamic tradition. Unfortunately, the evidence for evolution is now so overwhelming that only very very few religious scientists are left arguing against evolution. God is very hard to define. You are defining God to mean as the creator of the Universe I think. Now it turns out that science is also showing that the Universe is incredibly large and is the only one around and there is nothing like it, and it seems to be unique. Now let say there is a unique and only thing like itself called ypatxaqu. And someone says who created ypatxaqu, and someone says the answer is cayalpthx which is also the only one and unique. Well then who created cayalpthx asks the questioner? You see there is no evidence at all that the Universe was ever really created to begin with, and the answer that God created it leads to the question who created God? But then people with faith do not like to ask questions let alone getting answers that go against their faith. Ah, the big bang theory say that the Universe started at some "moment" you might say. Well that theory is part of other theories like the string theory which says that the big bang is collisions of branes and events like that happen and have been happening "for all time". In short "existence" has been around all the time and there is no need to invent a creator that no one created. I know that is very unsatisfactory to someone who is used to thinking of God as all knowing, all seeing, etc.
The point is Manal that the scientific method has its own imperitive, and it is not bound by any religious book. There are statements in the Quran that are against findings in physics, in chemistry, in biology, in geology, etc. Many contort themselves to give explanations of ayehs to conform to the findings of science. Here is an example (various translations of 79:30)
Yusuf Ali:: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
Pickthal:: And after that He spread the earth,
Arberry :: and the earth-after that He spread it out,
Shakir :: And the earth, He expanded it after that.
Sarwar :: After this, He spread out the earth,
Khalifa :: He made the earth egg-shaped.
Hilali/Khan:: And after that He spread the earth;
Hilali/Khan revised:: And after that He spread the earth.
Malik :: After that He spread out the earth,[30]
QXP :: And after that He made the earth shoot out from the Cosmic Nebula and made it spread out egg-shaped. ('Dahaha' entails all the meanings rendered (21:30), (41:11)).
Maulana Ali:: And the earth, He cast it after that.
Free Minds:: And the land after that He spread out.
George Sale:: After this, He stretched out the earth,
JM Rodwell:: And afterwards stretched forth the earth,-
Asad And after that, the earth: wide has He spread its expanse,
Look at how Khalifa and QXP translate. The reason is that in 1993 ibn baz, the mufti of mecca, declared that the earth is flat and anyone who say otherwise is a kaffir. The reason was that people were asking why is it that the Quran has a 'flat earth' in its descriptions and not a sphere as it really is. The simple fact is that Quran does reflect the flat geometry for earth as people knew it back in the 7th century. Similarly there is now a cottage industry by some muslims to show that any new discovered scientific fact was already there in the Quran. And some of the arguments they make are just silly and laughable. For example, the quran says that allah created everything in pairs, and some cite that physics gives particles and anti-particles and those are pairs. Well then there is something called a "photon" and it does not have a pair at all. As a matter of fact there are a lot of things in physics that do not have pairs at all.
Manal, one can close ones mind and say that one does not need to question and understand. Muslims have been doing that for centuries and they keep getting farther and farther behind. Muslims cannot keep pretending that science is a different way of looking at the world and this way of looking does cause problems with many a verses in the Quran.
Doubtless
Salam
Well i dont think statements in Quran are against scientific findings, but
people interpret things uncorrectly and disagree sometimes in tafseer of
quran and therefore u can have many different tafseers. This is due to the
arabic language in which Quran is written. It was Allah's purpose to descend
quran in this language to challenge people. Arabic language is so vast, like
an ocean one poet said. One word can have so many meanings and for one
meaning u can have thousands of words. People in former times used to master
the literrary language so well that they used to speak in poems when they
spoke. The most famous poems and poets are arabic. The best poems of ghazal
are in arabic. Thats why Allah came with sth greater so that even the wisest
men wouldnt be able to solve the mystery of quran. And Allah says u wont be
able to come with one aya like mine.
In quran Allah speaks several times of how he created sky and earth. When he
speaks about the earth Allah can mean the globe (alkura elardeye) or he can
mean the ground (sateh elard) on which we walk.
You see and if we take the earth as a meaning of ground we dont have a
statement against scientific findings because the ground is even. Allah says
that he made the ground even for us. Then if u continue in reading the sura
u will see that this is true. Then Allah speaks about the water which comes
from the ground and he created it for us and our animals and then he speaks
about the mountains, etc.
U say that in quran Allah says that he created everything in pairs. Then are
u able to define pairs? Pairs in arabic means zawj zawjeyn. But zawjayn can
also mean two kinds. For example refering to humans and animals it means
female and male like in sura 53:45 or 51:49 but refering to plants it means
the colour and the taste like in 55:52. In another context Allah refers only
to animals that he created them in pairs or to humans. So u see everything
doesnt mean everything. Allah uses it in a speacial context when he speaks
of the creation of mankind or animals.
Why making it so complicated by asking what is the pair of the photon. Just
look around then u will see many things which are not created in pairs. like
stones, mountains, seas, trees etc.
Muslims dont close their minds. On the contrary we try to understand and
research but sometimes its very difficult to find a proof. Many scientists
converted to Islam because they found out things that were already written
in quran. The problem why Mulsims are lacking behind is that they are not
promoted and thats what governments want. They dont want to leave Muslims to
depend on themselves. Even the prayer carpet we must import it from China.
And thats a pitty when we know that many scientific inventions and
discoveries were done by Muslims in former times, like in astronomy or
astrology or mathematics, the word algebra comes from arabic aljaber etc.
This again can be refered to the fact that Muslims are only strong when they
are together as an ummah under a good caliphate. Thats why Muslims today
they are longing to develop because they have so much knowledge but we need
means to help us to develop and if we dont have these means but instead we
are always pushed down and back then we will remain underdeveloped.
But in sha allah not!
Salam
Manal
Dear Manal,
You write:
"Thats why Allah came with sth greater so that even the wisest
men wouldnt be able to solve the mystery of quran. And Allah says u wont be
able to come with one aya like mine."
Now you tell me that the message that God wanted to send to humans is such that even the wisest men would not be able to understand!! That is the reason why there are dozens of sects in Islam? Is that the reason why they fight amongst each other and kill each other? Only yesterday I was reading palestinian students from the hamas and the fatah sections firing at each other with AK47's. Only yesterday I was reading of Ahameddiyys being dug up out of muslim graves and being returned to their families in pakistan. Please look on the web and you will see muslims trying to assert that all science is already present in the Quraan, but they are unable to show one discovery that the muslims made from reading the quraan. It is only after the fact that someone else has discovered that the "mystry of the arabic language" allows them to claim that it was in the quraan already. That is just childish silliness. People who study languages do not consider arabic to be the best language or the most flexible. There are other languages and the literature in many other languages is also very beautify and moving. It is incorrect to say that the best poems are in arabic. I do not know arabic, and hence have to rely on others who do. I do know a few languages and I can tell you that some of poems in those languages are awfully beautiful and moving. The word algebra comes from the iraqi mathematician Khawarzim Al-jabr. Muslims do like to claim that he invented algebra. That is not true. It turns out that he was mostly a translator of books that the muslim armies had looted from the hindu libraries in India. It was quite common that the arab translators were not giving credit to the original scientist works that they were translating becuase the original people were all kaafirs. Algebra it turns out is the invention of the ancient greeks and the hindu mathematician Aryabatta. But it is true that Algebra is named after Al-jabr because it was his translations that were used in the west first.
Manal the world wants the muslim world to develop and progress and join the rest of the world. No one is pushing you down from outside. The problem is form within. Look at the education reform in egypt, or in pakistan, or in malaysia, or even in saudia arabia. The problem is the rules being set down by the mullahs, and the imams.
Doubtless
To: faithfreedom2@gmail.com
Date: Apr 26, 2006 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: Comment!
No not like this. Of course Allah wants us to understand the message. Its
very clear to us. The message that Allah gave us through quran is that Islam
is the only way to paradise. And we as Muslims must make sure that this
message reaches everyone in this world. It is our responsibility to invite
all others to Islam, so that they also have a chance to know about it and to
be able to choose this way.
I have no problem with that at all. I may not believe in Allah but you should have the right to tell others about allahs message.
Allah gave us a mind to think and compare and finally make a decision wether
to take Islam or not. But our mind is very small compared to Allah's. Allah
says in surat alkahf that if the ocean would be ink to use it to write down
all what Allah knows then it will get over before we finish writing down all
Allahs's knowledge. Now one can imagine how huge Allah's knowledge is.
Therefore Allah cannot share this amount of knowledge with us. He reveils to
us just a little hint of it in quran through one aya between many other
ayas. But he wont explain it further. He leaves it to us to think about it,
because it is so unimaginable for us. We made many discoveries in quran of
these small signs which Allah reveilt to us. We didnt prove it
scientifically to find out if its true, because we dont need any prove to
believe. We believe that it is true because it comes from Allah.
There are so many unaswered questions like where Allah comes from, what was
before he created this universe, where does it start where does it end etc.
These questions will always remain unanswered because we will never find any
explanations for it. It is Allahs knowledge only. But we shoud always think
about it. Its good. It pleases Allah because it proves that we have faith in
him and trust him and believe in his greatness. And Allah doesnt want us to
see and know only the miracles. We shouldnt believe in Islam only because of
the miracles in quran. We should invite it in order to feel the perfectness,
the greatness, the calmness, the dignity, the honor, the warmth, the
strenth, the safety, the peace, the freedom, etc that Islam gives to us.
I do not know and I cannot figure out how you can possibly know about what Allah wants or does not want. I think you are repeating what others have told you. But I see no problem with what you say. My problem begins with what muslims have actually done and how the non-muslims have been treated by the muslims. My problem is with the intrinsic and inherent unfairness of the laws of dhimma. But that is another topic. You want to believe in allah, go right ahead.
Again you are telling about Muslims blowing up themselves. Now you should
look back and please you tell me about the bloody history of the christians.
What did they do with the red indians, what did they do with the blacks,
what did they do with the slaves, what did they do during the crusades, what
did they do with the poor, what did they do with the weak, what did they do
with the sick, what did they do with the children, what did they do with the
women (didnt they burn them because they thought they were witches), what
did they do with the muslims, what did they do with the jews, what did they
do to each other (during the 30 war didnt protestants and catholic fight
against each other), what did they do in vietnam, what did they do in japan,
what did they do in afrika, what did they do in algeria, what did they do in
india, what did they do in iraq, what did/are they do/ing in guantanamo,
what did/are they do/ing in abu ghreib, what are they doing with the poor
countries ( exploiting them), what are they doing with their own people
(exploiting them by taking all their money in form of taxes), etc etc etc.
Manal , christians fought each other for much longer. The sectarian battles between the christians were long and drawn out in chrisitan history. That is one of the reasons why christians finally learnt to keep relgion out of politics. The fact that christians did it does not make that muslims are killing each other today false. Earlier in your letter you wanted to blame everything on the americans, and I was giving you examples of muslims killing muslims. If you want to compare "imperialism" of a political power with a "religion" then go right ahead. You are merely repeating the charges against America without going into the reality of American history. What you are saying is propoganda. The issue is that whatever the Americans have done they have not done in the name of religion. Islam does everything in the name of Allah and his rasool. Do you see the difference?
Is that the democracy which they scream out so loudly always and are proud
of to have? Is that the humanity they claim to have? Is that the peacefull
world they think they live in? Is that the freedom and liberty they talk of?
Is that what christanity teaches? Why do we always mix personal with
cultural background?
Muslims have never had a single leader that anyone ever asked them if they wanted that leader or not. Starting from mohammad, and the four kalifhas, the leaders of muslims have never ever been chosen by the people at large. So it is hard for you to perhaps comprehend democracy. The world has never been peaceful. Some places have been peaceful for a short time only in history. Islam's history has been very very bloody for the non-muslims.
Just now i had a lecture about this. We always claim to say when we meet
someone from a different culture all people are like this. But people have
their own personalities and own ways of thinking which they dont share with
the other people of their same own culture.
Rules and systems set down by people can never be good. Imams are not
responsilbe for setting down some kind of rules. We follow the rules that
come from Allah. These are the best.
Look at other systems which were put up by men. People just fight and can
never come to an agreement. Capital system just exploit the poor, social
system exploit others so that never someone can be satisfied. But if u take
islamic system, its so well made that everyone can be satisfied.
The problems with the islamic system, manal is, that not even muslims can agree what it is exactly right now, and we come right back to the muslims killing muslims at present because they cannot agree on much these days.
But please dont tell me now how can be iraqis or plastinians or others be
satisfied. Thats the problem that we dont live according to these rules. I
dont consider arabic states as islamic states. They are fake. They are
dictatorships. Thats why we can never develop and we will never be satisfied
in them. Imams in Saudi Arabia go around in their cars at prayer time to
scream with loud speaker that they dont want to see anyone outside because
they should go to mosque to pray and what do they do themselves?
Doubtful!!!
Manal
Can you give me an example of an Islamic state in history where and when it existed? How far back do we have to go to find a true example of an islamic state?
Doubtless
To: faithfreedom2@gmail.com
Date: Apr 27, 2006 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: Comment!
The fact is that even Christians are still going on and killing and
exploiting people and taking away their rights and humiliating and
torturing. From where does it come that Muslims blow up themselves in Iraq
or in Palestine or elsewhere? Did u hear of any suicide bombers in Iraq
before the US invaded it? Did u hear of any suicide bombers in Palestine
before Israel invaded it? Did u hear of any suicide bombers in Pakistan
before it parted from India? Did u hear of any suicide bombers in
Afghanistan before the US invaded it?
Please, even the Christian's issues are religious? Didnt u hear Bush's
speach about how he received a message from God to fight terrorism in Iraq?
Even he invaded Iraq in the name of God.
Also the Israelis have a religious issue when they invaded Palestine.
According to them its their holy land and not only Palestine the whole
region from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan up to Iraq. All Israelis have to end up
settled there. And for them, the most religious, the strongest desire is to
kill a Muslim, u know that? Because according to them, after Jesus they are
still waiting for their messias, a prophet who will come among them. But
when Mohammad pbuh came and he was among the arabs, they got very angry and
didnt accept him. Thats why they fought him and his companians and thats why
they hate Muslims so much. And now they are still waiting for their prophet.
So even Christians and Jews when they fight others its according to their
religion and in the name of God. So there is no difference between them and
the Muslims who blow themselves up in the name of Allah. At least the
Muslims kill themselves, i mean they judge themselves immediatlely but
Christians and Jews order others to kill. How many solidiers got killed in
Iraq till now? And american government is always denying. Bush will send
more and more soldiers unitl he doesnt have any more. And so many amongst
them escaped also because they cant stand this fighting any more.
>
>
>
>Muslims have never had a single leader that anyone ever asked them if
>they wanted that leader or not. Starting from mohammad, and the four
>kalifhas, the leaders of muslims have never ever been chosen by the people
>at large. So it is hard for you to perhaps comprehend democracy. The
>world
>has never been peaceful. Some places have been peaceful for a short time
>only in history. Islam's history has been very very bloody for the
>non-muslims.
>
Because the first 4 leaders were chosen by the prophet himself but everyone
agreed with them. He chose them because they were his best men and he
trusted them very much and had faith that they will rule according to Allahs
rules and just like himself.
But later after Ali, when the big fitna came, then the caliphate was
herited. It went from father to son which is not correct and not according
to Islam.
Yes people can argue a lot about history. I dont even remember what i ate
yesterday then why should i
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