Malik Usman Debates the FFI Staff

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islam@consultant.com




Hi,
Mr Ali,

After reading the article, "What Religion to Follow”. I have got more confused then ever before. First I took you as my solution, but now I am so confused that I don't know what to even say.... Ali, at the end of the article you said, that their is nothing in religion and you will feel "God" when you work for humanity. Right?? Now first of all why do you say about feeling God when you previously said you don't believe on one? Also everything we know today about "God" has all transfered through some religion, without them (I consider a religion as Philosophy, and which can be sometime just built on illusions) we don't even have a clue about the God, God's presence, creation etc....

I hope you understand what I mean, this is just too much confusing to even write...

Malik Usman



Dear Usman,

Thank you for reading the article. Now I will answer your questions without referring you to another article because your questions are new. :-)
You wrote, “First I took you as my solution, but now I am so confused that I don't know what to even say....”

The whole purpose of my writing is to make people think on their own and do not follow another person as their solutions, guru, imam, prophet or marja’e taqleed. If someone, after going through all my writings decides that I am intelligent and sharp to the extent that he can trust whatever I write, follow me or look unto me as his solution, then I have failed.

The whole idea behind this exercise is to stimulate people to become freethinkers. Freethinkers are independent thinkers. Freethinkers listen to the words said but not to the person who says it. If a person according to you is right in almost everything; that does not mean that he is right in ALL things. My message is: Do not follow another person, become a skeptic and accept only what makes sense to YOU. Re-analyze everything that you were taught as a child and believed to be true. You believed those things because you trusted the medium. That medium could have been your own loving parent but could have been honestly wrong. People do not teach their kids falsehood deliberately. They educate them to the best of their ability, yet since they themselves are misinformed, they pass that misinformation to their children and perpetuate the cycle of ignorance. Thus we have the children of the Jews becoming Jews, the children of the Christians becoming Christians and the children of the Muslims turning Muslims, and so on so forth.

My hope is that after reading my writings people start to doubt everything and find their own lights. Please read the words of Krishnamurti 'Truth is a pathless land' once more.
Now as for your question about God:

Actually I did not say I do not believe in any God. In the same article that you read. I wrote: “I do not discard the Divine reality. Just like Galileo who did not reject the Earth but people’s understanding of it, I do not reject God but people’s understanding of it”.

This subject is covered in detail in the Origin Of God.


Usman:

In first Para, you mentioned that we should not follow any human being, and we must choose our own way. Don’t you think that these humans who claims to be prophets and so on, have spent their whole life in search of the truth. Don’t you think it is good if we choose one among them and follow his words and then build our life on this foundation! For example determining and studying religion is a full time job, people spend their whole life solely in this. Now if Humans have to study it only, then who will advance in other fields; like of science and so on.


Sina:
I do not think those who claim to be Prophet actually are. It is our responsibility to find the truth on our own and never rely on another person for that. Even if you want to follow someone blindly, trusting his or her decisions, you have to make sure that this person is a true guide and not a charlatan. People fail to do that. They simply rely on the guru of their parents. Naturally since truth cannot be more than one, from among thousands of ways, philosophies and religions at most only one can be true and the rest are wrong. How do you know which one is the true one? You have to investigate all of them, for which you need few thousands of years.

What I propose is a shift of paradigm. Man should not look unto another human being for guidance, but be inquisitive, question, reason. In other words doubt and gradually find the truth.

Logically it does not make sense that god sends a messenger in a corner of the world without the rest of the world having the chance to learn about it immediately. If we are all children of God we all should have equal chance for salvation.

Also it makes no sense that god makes his message so confusing and illogical. All these so-called holy books are replete with scientific incongruence, errors and absurdities. A host of apologists are trying desperately to reinterpret the so-called “difficulties” in their holy books. Shouldn’t the message of God be simple and clear to understand? If there are so many sects in the same religion, doesn’t it prove that the holy book of that religion is not clear for everyone to understand the same truth as God intended? Go to the section dedicated to Quran in my site and read any one of the articles, especially the Contradictions in Quran. See how this book is obtuse and contradictory. Could it be that the maker of this universe be so ignorant as it appears to be in Quran? (Bible is not better either).


Usman:

In third you said that your mission is to cause doubt, don’t you think that this isn’t polite? It means that you only cause confusion. I strongly believed that you talk about and believe in unity and peace while confusion is what is against it. I hope that you will be able to explain your theory of doubt.


Sina:
Teaching people to doubt are not impolite. Teaching them to have faith is impolite. We come from a religious culture that has all its values upside down.

What is faith? Faith is belief in something without evidence. Once you have the evidence it is no more belief but knowledge. For example, there are people who believe in the Bigfoot. The Bigfoot is said to be a human-like animal living in North America. There is not enough evidence of the existence of such creature, yet some believe that it exists. If this belief is strong it becomes faith.

But what will happen if we actually find such creature? Do you say that you “believe” that Bigfoot exists? No, at that time you “know” that it exists. Knowledge is based on facts. Belief is based on suppositions and lack of facts. Primitive people invented fables and gods and believed in them. They built religions around them. Even today some people believe that snakes are gods, some believe in cows, some believe that rats are the spirits of their ancestors, others believe that a black meteorite is fallen from heaven and therefore must be worshipped. Muslims believe that Muhammad split the moon, they believe that he performed Voodoo as soon as he was born and started to praise Allah. Jews believe that Moses parted the Red Sea and Christians believe that Jesus rouse from the dead and ascended to heaven. All of these religious people believe that Noah collected all the living animals in his ark while the whole earth was flooded for 40 days. They don’t doubt the absurdity of these beliefs. How could the polar bear go to Canaan? Who informed the Australian Kangaroos to head to Middle East? How these animals got there? All these stories are absurd. There is no evidence for any of them, yet people believe in them, because belief does not require evidence.

You mentioned Mi’arj. Is this scientific? If God is supposed to be omnipresent, why Muhammad had to go somewhere else to meet him? Is Jerusalem the gateway to Heaven? If Muhammad traveled on a winged steed in one night to get to heaven then the heaven must be a physical place close to Earth. You cannot travel out side the Earth’s atmosphere with wings. Wings will only take you were there is air. With so many mapping, air travels satellite photos, why we haven’t find this heaven? If heaven is not a physical place why Muhammad needed the winged steed? If Allah was behind the curtain then god cannot be omnipresent. An omnipresent god cannot be behind, in front, under or over anything. He is everywhere. This whole story is so naïf that it is mind-boggling how anyone still believes in it. But faith blinds. If someone said a similar story about someone else, no Muslim would believe it, but since it is about Muhammad, all lies are truth. The bigger the lie, the better it is.

The charlatans calling themselves prophets wanted to keep people ignorant. They did not have our interest in their heart. They were a bunch of liars and impostors. They kept telling you it is not up to you to test God, but God must test you. They praised people for believing without questioning. The stronger was this belief, the better it was. Of course it was better for them, because people did not dare to question them and expose their lies. Now that we are mature, we have to ask these questions. We have to become skeptic and doubt whatever we were told and accepted as true. This does not mean to reject everything. It means we should ask for facts and stop believing things for which we have no evidence. It’s time to “know” not to “believe”. Doubt is the path to knowledge. If you don’t doubt you don’t ask and if you don’t ask you’ll not learn. The world owes to men and women who doubted. We owe to Galileo to Copernicus to Newton, to Darwin, to Einstein and to all those who doubted what they were told and found the facts. Now we no more BELIEVE that the Earth is flat but we KNOW that it is round.

[This subject is explained in more detail under the section FREETHINKING]


Usman:

Also if your mission is to pull people out of the religion then you must not leave then in some pathless way, you must guide them to some place, some religion, some destiny and some understand able God, to some laws to be followed and to some code of conducts to be followed for life. And your laws must also explain ones destiny not until death but onwards.


Sina:
Truth is pathless. If I present myself as the path, then I am an impostor. It is not up to me to be the spiritual guide for others and it would be a mistake if anyone take me as such, follow me blindly and imitate me. We humans are all created equal. We are all endowed with reason. We can put our heads together and find the truth helping each other, but it would be a mistake to take someone as our guru and follow him. No man is infallible. Those who are honest acknowledge their limitations and those who do not, who claim to be from a deity that no one except them can see and hear, are impostors and charlatans. The substitute to religion is not yet another religion. That would be replacing ignorance with another ignorance. As long as people expect another person to guide them, there will be swindlers who will come forth pretending to be the guide and take them for a ride.

Humans do not need another human for guidance. We have to be our own guides. We have to follow the Golden Rule. There lies our source of guidance. “Do not do to others what you do not expect others do to you”. This is the eternal truth. From this source we can get all the guidance we need.


Usman:
Then you believe that these God, Allah and Yahweh are out dated, what about the researches that goes on (scientific), which proves the religious transcripts to be true. As I was a Muslim and so is my family I studied number of books that proved each and every Ayah of Quran to be scientifically right. For an example see below:

Prove of Gravitation:
O company of jinn and men, if ye have power to penetrate (all) regions of the heavens and the earth; then penetrate (them)! Ye will never penetrate them save with (Our) sanction. (Q. 53: 33)


Sina:
There is no real research showing that god of the Quran and Bible is scientific. What you refer to is pseudo-science. It is ignorance and misinformation imparted in scientific language. Please go to the section dedicated to Quran in my site and read the articles that speak about Quran and science. I am not going to repeat this subject because it is explained exhaustively. However, if after reading those articles you still disagree and want to refute me, I will be glad to address your specific points. I may be able to answer or I may accept your views.
Just to make a quick note: Is jinn mentioned in the above verse scientific? If everything else in Quran was right just this belief in jinn cast doubt on the “divine origin” of this book. What would you think of a scientist who talks to you of Santa Clause as if he was a real person? Now apart from that, why in the world you think this absurd and obtuse verse is the proof of the Gravitation? Religious people see what they want to see. This is faith.
As for your criticism of Jonathan Baron’s definition of Rational Thinking, I am not familiar with his works and cannot comment.


Usman:
Do you believe in a God or multiple gods?


Sina:
I do not believe in any God as a being. I believe in the Single Principle underlying the creation. This Single Principle is not the same god of the theists. It is a non-being. Please read my article Life Beyond and the Single Principle in the section dedicated to the discussion of God.


Usman:
Now towards proving my point. If you don’t believe on a religion, then you should not even believe on the existence of God. Because I don’t think that going through the intellectual maturity man came to know God, once in for while. According to me, he must have questioned someone, and someone might have said, God.


Sina:
The notion of God has been evolved from old myths. This has been a gradual process. It is an invention of human imagination and there is no evidence to its existence. It’s just like the belief in Santa Clause. Some one must have started this fairy tale and it grew. Allah is the same as Al Il ah Il or El was the supreme deity of the pantheon of the Sumerians. En in Sumerian language is the definitive article like Al in Arabic and The in English. So Enlil (En Lil = En Il) in Sumerian is Allah (Al Il ah) in Arabic. The H at the end is Arabization. Allah was not introduced by Muhammad. It existed as the supreme god between 360 gods in Mecca. The wife of Enlil was Enlat. When it went to Arabia it became Al Lat or simply Lat. Later people said Lat was Allah’s daughter and Muhammad denied that he had any daughters. People did not record their legends, so by going from mouth to mouth it kept changing. The same happened among the Jews. Yahweh who was originally the son of El or Elyon ended up merging with his father.

These gods are myths. Gradually people became more sophisticated and could not accept several gods so they synthesized them together. There is as much evidence for the existence of God as there is for the existence of Santa. If you want to be a believer, it is up to you. Belief, as I said, is acceptance of something without evidence. You can accept anything without evidence and that is your choice. My job is to teach people how to be skeptic, how to question, how to doubt and how to not accept anything without evidence. This is my definition of Rational Thinking. If you still think faith is superior to doubt, then continue believing. Just remember that we owe our civilization to men who doubted not to those who believed.
Who do you think is superior, ArRazi, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd who doubted and were called heretics or Ghazali, Bukhari and Muslim (not to mention Khomeini and Mullah Umar of Afghanistan)? The latter may be important for Muslims. But as Islam’s glory fades, so these men of faith will be forgotten. Razi, Sina and Ibn Rushd will be remembered forever for their great contribution to the world. These people did not believe in Islam but they put their trust in science and facts. They doubted the validity of the garbage that was given to them and therefore became the giants that they became. Under the section Freethinking, I have an article called Freethinkers of Islam. You may like to take a look at it.


Usman:
As for Yahweh, the Lord, He is believed to be very loving to His creatures, how could He kill them all, when He loves them?


Sina:
I think you should read the Bible. I am sure you will not be saying this if you read that book. If you don’t have time, just read Joshua. This is a small chapter. No one who has read Bible would say such thing.


Usman:
You think that people use religion. Of course they do, but not everyone.


Sina:
Good and bad people exist everywhere. My fight is against bigotry and fanaticism. Religion is the source of bigotry and fanaticism. People who are inclined to do evil, find justification for their acts in the cruel teachings of their religion and the good people cannot stop them because they can produce verses from their holy books and silence any opposition. That is why fundamentalism always wins. Quran is full of mandates to kill the unbelievers and hate them. (See the collection of the Quranic verses called Quran Teaches). That is why the countries that call themselves Islamic and want to implement Islam are barbaric. These countries kill people left and right not because they are not following the teachings of Islam; they do so because they are following those teachings. Also my site is not “revolutionary”. If by revolution you mean instigating rebellion and uprising, that is not what I intend to do. I do not advocate violence. The whole rational behind my writings is because I want to make this world a peaceful world where all members of humankind can live together in peace, without one thinking of others as najis, kafir, inferior or try to subdue them and impose on them Jazyeh (Islamic penalty tax imposed on non-Muslims).


Usman:
Do you think that man has reached a mature enough state to understand the origin, existence and everything about Allah/God/Lord/etc?


Sina:
There are some questions for which we may never find an answer. But I am a positive thinker and say: “never say never”! With the expansion of human understanding and the discovery of science, I believe that one day we may be able to answer many questions such as the ones you posed. [I believe so, because of that I have no evidence. It’s just a belief]
But one thing we “Know” [we know because we can prove it] is that the explanation given to us by a bunch of charlatans posing as messenger of God is absolutely false. If you read my article Where is God and other articles under the same heading, you will know that such god as portrayed in the Quran and the Bible is a logical impossibility.

I define God as the Single Principle. This is only a theory, a hypothesis. I am not here to deceive people like the unscrupulous quacks who pretend to be the messengers of God demanding total obedience, and absolute faith in their concoction of mumbo jumbo and threaten you with the fire of hell and the wrath of an imaginary god if you dare to question their absurd claims. I want you to think, doubt, and come up with your own understanding. Your understanding and my understanding will not be 100% true. But at least they are based on some facts that we know and the more facts we learn the more we understand. Our beliefs will evolve. We can exchange ideas and help each other to understand more. Eventually the humanity will get closer and closer to the truth. This is much better than having faith in a falsehood, fighting over it and trying to impose it on others by sword and by blind faith.


Usman:
Why don’t you study Allah, according to Quran and tell me about that in more detail.


Sina:
I was born as a Muslim and that was the first thing I studied. This deity is absurd. If you want to know why I reject Allah you have to read my article in the section called God. Especially the one called The Purpose of Creation. If still you have questions or objections, I will be more that happy to address them or accept your views if they are convincing.


Usman:
Can you give me more information on the books “Katib al Waqidi” and “Tabari”? Well if this is true about Muhammad, then why don’t you see this conversation in this way that one day the dispute of LAT, OZZA, and MANAT will be over, and it is clear now? We see no follower of LAT, OZZA or MANAT today.


Sina:
You can order the books of Katib al Waqidi and Tabari from an Islamic bookstore.

The issue of the three daughters of Allah is over now and so the question of Allah himself will be over when people start to think rationally and abandon blind faith.


Usman:
And as you claimed that Muhammad was misogynist, then please I admire him on this thing that he provided more freedom to women then any other religion.


Sina:
One thing religious people love to do is to fool themselves. Muslims believe that Islam improved the status of women. This is a total lie. I have written an article disproving this lie. It is called Did Islam Improve the Status of Women? You can find it under the section dedicated to Women.

The next fallacy is that Muslims compare the status of Muslim women of today with the status of non-Muslims of 2 or 3 thousand years ago. Even if Bible is unkind to women, no Jew or Christian follows those books when it comes to the treatment of women. Women’s rights are protected by the secular laws and not by religious laws. In Islamic countries, women are abused because Muslims cannot get rid of Shariah.

Kind regards
Ali Sina

Dear Usman,

You wrote:
Usman:
First of all, you must trust someone. it is not something needed to understand religion but, it is necessary social need.


Sina:
I agree. When I need surgery I go to a doctor and allow him to cut me and operate on me. I trust him. But the reason I trust him is because he has studied for so many years and has earned a degree. I trust him because I trust the institution that has examined him and gave him license to practice. If he did not have a license I would not have trusted him. If someone tells me he is a doctor and the only proof of his qualification is his own word I would be a fool to trust him.

What is the qualification of the prophets? No one testified to their truthfulness but themselves. It would be foolish to accept them taking their words as the proof. We have to investigate and question their claim. How many people have investigated the religion that they believe? People trust their parents who trusted their parents …. Are Muslims allowed to question the truth of Muhammad’s claim? What will happen to them if they find out that Muhammad was not a messenger of God? Muhammad himself would not allow people to change their minds and would kill them. Can we trust such a person?


Usman:
A simple example is of teachers. Without trusting them to be right, you will never learn to even write this what you are doing now. You have to trust them until you learn how to make others believe you (off course with your knowledge). But even then this trusting part remains necessary as you question on their basis.


Sina:
You can trust your teacher. But also you know that your teacher has earned his degree to teach. I am sure no school will hire someone as a teacher without checking that this person is qualified for the job. Even though students are free and they must question what the teacher tells them. During the middle ages, the scholastics called Socrates, Plato and Aristotle the great teachers and trusted them. If they wanted to know about anything they would read these great men. They did not feel the need for independent investigation. So for centuries wale was considered to be a fish because Aristotle had classified it as fish. But wale is not a fish. It is a mammal. Even great people make mistake. It is wise to be skeptic always. Learn from those who know but have an open mind and accept that everyone can make mistake.


Usman:
Now next thing is that I don’t believe to be child of God. I think if He is my creator then He is my master not my father. I think that few people used this term to become holy and gain control over each and every life form. This also served to them as licensee to do what ever they want to.


Sina:
This is a matter of semantics. Christians call themselves children of God and Muslims slaves of God. I personally prefer the Christian notion as it give them a closer and more loving relationship with their imaginary god. Why would god need slaves? This gives the impression that we humans are doing something for him. Is he benefiting from our service? In that case he is exploiting us for his own use. Muhammad was a very primitive man. He was a sick narcissist controlling person. When he said you are Allah’s slaves he meant you are his slaves. Allah was the alter ego of the prophet. However, since I do not believe in a personal god, both these terms are absurd. That god is within your imagination and your relationship to him is purely subjective.


Usman:
Then you said that sending a messenger to a corner of the world doesn’t make sense. But well what do you think; there were neither any global television networks, nor any Internet.


Sina:
That is why I say it makes no sense. God could have given humans television and Internet at once so this problem would have been taken care of. Or he could have sent thousands of messengers with the same message in every corner of the world. But god never helped humans in their scientific quest. We invented the television, the Internet and every other thing when we stopped believing in the mumbo jumbo of those prophets and tried to find our own way.


Usman:
Religion is based on faith and faith needs no prove.


Sina:
That is precisely what I said. Therefore we have people believing in any absurd thing like cows being gods and Muhammad splitting the moon, etc. because faith needs no proof. That is plain and simple ignorance. That is why faith is for primitive people and doubt is for modern intelligent humans. It’s up to you to decide whether you want to think like primitive people or like intelligent people.


Usman:
Following our parent’s religion isn’t the biggest question. Abraham left his father’s religion and asked him to do so, but his father didn’t agree and asked him to leave. Just imagine Abraham’s this act, in a place when his father used to make the idols himself.


Sina:
Following blindly one’s father’s religion is the source of all human ignorance, division, hatred and most of the wars and bloodshed. We perpetuate those fallacies and fight with each other to impose them on others. If we independently searched for the truth, we would have found that no one can find the absolute truth and we would have become understanding of each other instead of condemning each other, calling each other Kafir and Murtad as we do know. Also remember that Muhammad did not allow the people to follow the religion of their fathers. He killed them, and forced them to change their religion to Islam. Isn’t this contrary to what you say?


Usman:
Now Ali, again about doubt and confusion, which are two names of one thing. If people fall in confusion they look for solution (just like me). Then they find someone or something (in my case you). Then some limits themselves while other continue their search (what I did). But sometimes the people who have fell in the confusion try to interpret the thing they don’t like in a completely new way, which is necessarily not right (like you).


Sina:
Doubt and confusion are not the same. Being doubtful is being skeptical and not believing blindly something without evidence. But being confused is having a disordered mind. They are completely different things. As skeptical person has to be a clear thinker, an analyst and inquisitive; this requires a very orderly mind. You are confused on this matter.


Usman:
When you criticized the religious scripts, you first talked about worshiping cattle etc, ok. Then of Muhammad’s miracle of splitting moon, which is proved by some scientifically.


Sina:
Now that you mention it and I realize that you are an open-minded person, I will tell you something that I usually don’t tell anyone, because if I do people think I am crazy. You know my great grand father was a holy man and it is reported that he split the Sun. This is true. Every one in his town saw this strange miracle. One half of the sun went to the East and the other to the West. Then they started to circulate the sky. But my great grand father pointed his walking stick at them and they were joined together again. I am very happy to have found someone intelligent and open minded like you who actually believe that splitting the moon and the sun are scientifically true. Now I can say this with more confidence and announce it to the entire world. If someone doubts, I will send him to you to tell him about the scientific part of it.

Usman:
About Noah- it is scientifically proved that Earth’s water level was way much higher and it has tremendously lowered. For just info addition, you know how petroleum is produced underground? You’ll find interesting links of it to Noah’s Ark and flood story.


Sina:
In order for the waters to cover the tip of all the mountains as it is said in the story of Noah, we need at least 10 times more water than there is in the Earth. The earth is a close environment. Where did this much water come and where did it go? How the animals from South America, Australia and the rest of the world went to Canaan? Who informed them and gave them the address of Noah? There are millions of species, as of yet the scientists have not been able to complete the list of all the species of the animals, including insects and birds of this planet, how a handful of people like the old Noah and his sons could gather all of these animals? How these animals crossed the oceans? It takes a sloth, hours to go forward few meters. For a South American sloth to go to Canaan it would have taken a thousand years. How they got there? Where Noah lodged this many animals? How he fed them? Pandas eat bamboo and Koalas a certain Eucalyptus that do not grow in Canaan. Did these animals bring their own food along? How they were kept apart? Many animals are carnivores; what did they eat during this time? Please explain these questions scientifically.

Usman:
I can talk about Miraj, and can talk on its scientific aspects too, but it will just increase the length of the e-mail. If you like me to tell you more about it, do let me know.


Sina:
I agree that Mi'raj is true. Read my own True Story of Mi'raj.


Usman:
I don’t agree that doubt is way to knowledge. I think that it is need that is path to knowledge. Until you don’t need, you have no questions, and even if you have you would ask. Galileo questioned the traditional astronomy because he felt the uneasiness about accepting them, therefore he felt a need to investigate himself and let everyone be aware of it.


Sina:
Now that I realized you are so intelligent. I allow you to think whatever you like. A man who believes that Miraj and splitting the moon is scientific is sure above these petty subjects. You have already achieved the greatest knowledge of all. The rest is not that important.


Usman:
Sorry again, but have got some objections. Truth is the easiest path; it is the straightest path. Following it, you never need second thoughts, and you never have to make sure out of anything.


Sina:
Truth is very hard to accept when you are cocooned in lies and deceit. Your emotional attachment to those lies makes it extremely painful to face the truth. For example, a child loves his father immensely. What will happen to him if someone tells him that his father is a thief? He cannot accept it. His emotions come in between and force him to deny it. His father might be a thief indeed, but it is not possible for this person to see that. That is why the acceptance of the truth is hard. Truth will set you free, but it is very bitter and hard to swallow.

What is easy is faith. You can easily believe in anything if you allow yourself to believe it. As you said faith does not require proof. So you are free to believe in whatever pleases you and that is extremely easy.


Usman:
Then you said that we all are created equal. By the way, by whom the creation you are talking about. You have often quoted me things already said by Muhammad. Islam first introduced the equal creation phenomina. Please avoid such, as you don’t believe on them.


Sina:
No body has created us. Everything including the humans; have evolved. Also Muhammad never said all people are equal. He said all Muslims are equal (brothers). And surely he never said you and the rest of the world are equal to him. He wanted you and everyone else to obey him and listen to what he says. He did not care about your belief or mine. In fact he ordered the execution of anyone who disputed with him and disagreed with his views. He pretended to be the voice of God and disobedience of him is disobedience of God. This is not equality. Even if there is something that Muhammad said which is good, and believe me they are very few, that does not mean that he said if first. Good people have said good things since the beginning of time. No one has the copyright on them.


Usman:
And again you said that we need no guidance from any human. But as far as my study suggests, first it’s your parents whose guidance you want, like how to walk, talk, sleep and act. Then its teachers whose help is needed in studies and so on. Or simply our life is filled with guides. And have you ever seen a guide at a museum or at a historical place, you must consider them as wrong, right??


Sina:
I said mature people do not need guidance. People who are still passing the stages of infancy and childhood as far as their intellectual maturity is concerned need guidance. It seems that you still want someone to follow. So please read on and at the end of this article I will tell you whom to follow.


Usman:
You believe in science, and there is a term in biology called cells. They are the most [smallest] unit constituents of any living being. Long before it was proved to exist, it was accepted even then to exist, therefore, some people believed on a theory while some had faith on it. Then due to modern equipment scientist actually proved their existence and bang, it became a fact. But what do we get, a fact was widely accepted when it was even theory and just mere belief and faith of few? The cells when were believed and even before that, didn’t just ran away or vanished, and returned when they became fact. They were there as before, but just they were not visible. The same is applicable for Jinn.


Sina:
Belief in anything without evidence or proof is not logical and no rational person would do that. For example we know that the chance of having life and even intelligent life in other planets is immensely high. Both science and reason tell us that the same conditions that cause life to flourish in the Earth can exist in many planets outside our solar system and therefore given the colossal number of the stars and their planets in this universe, it is almost impossible that life is exclusive only to the Earth. But as long as we do not have evidence for that, this remains in the realm of theory. It will become a fact only after the evidence has been found. Now if people want to have faith in it or not that is their business, scientists don’t deal with faith. That is not a term they use in their vocabulary often.
Now as far as the Jinn is concerned, this is a foolish idea. It is just as foolish as believing in gnome, elves, goblins, leprechauns and Santa Clause. This is not a subject that a mature and intelligent person would even talk about. It is embarrassing. But then again you are above that. You are so intelligent that believe in Miraj and splitting of the moon. So you may even believe in Jinns. As both of us said, beliefs do not need evidence.


Usman:
Prove of Gravitation:
Here in that Ayah, the penetration from the regions of the earth mean to fly. Penetration is not natural for human’s like for the birds. By the heaven it means “Gravitational Sphere”. Going beyond it doesn’t causes the gravity to finish but it becomes so less that even can be neglected. This region is 400 miles above the surface of the Earth and is also called “Micro-gravity Zone”. Penetrating through the earth: Today we see helicopters and airplanes flying. What they do is that they push the air down, causing a resultive force, pulling them up. When a helicopter starts to fly it don’t do it immediately, it takes some time, until the speed of wing rotation gets fast enough to push them up.

And the airplane taxi on runway before take-off to get enough engine speed, enough to support their weight. This speed required is called escape speed. This is specifically defined as “ the required force by a material object to escape through the Gravitational field”. Same is with the mechanism of rockets, meant to take war heads, or to the trip to the space.

And just for addition of info, the escape speed from the earth is 11.2 km/second, for moon 2.38 km/second, Ceres (asteroids) 0.64 km/second, for sun 618 km/second, for Sirius (white dwarf) 5200 km/second and for a neutron star it is approximately 200,000 km/second.

Now just re-compare what Allah said and what the modern science says. Isn’t this the scientifically prove of this Ayah, that Allah asks man and jinn to escape if they can, all the vain it will be, if they do it with using sufficient force.


Sina:
This is what I call pseudo-science. Pseudo-science is not science. It is sheer ignorance described in scientific jargon. I hope you understood what you wrote. "I still want to hear about your definition of Rational thinking in detail, not a line on proving doubt and confusion to be the solution to all of our problems."

I think you should give up the idea of understanding Rational Thinking. I am not sure whether this is a faculty that one can teach to anther person. I think you should leave this subject aside for now. It is like having the talent of being a poet or a Musician. You can get some lessons in these subjects but you will never become a Dante Aleghieri or a Mozart. So for now, rational thinking is a little bit too early for you. Let us not waste your time over it. You may like to start by playing chess or take a course in mathematics. These things can exercise your brain, which is something you need for becoming a rational thinker.


Usman:
I also want to discuss the single principle but sorry, the article will just got lengthier, or too lengthy.

Ok you sometimes exaggerate. And why are you using Santa Clause too much, let’s leave the old man alone J. Ali, El and Il theory was intrusting but as you said it was myth then I just like reading them and that’s all. Just like one of Ram and abduction of his wife.


Sina:
What escaped your attention was that I said Allah is the evolution of Enlil. If Enlil and El are myths so is Allah.


Usman:
To me life becomes cool as it is meant to be when you starts to believe. You start believing in your family, in your friends and ultimately in the end even on your self.


Sina:
Belief in your family, friends and yourself is completely a different subject. Here we are talking about the potentials. Belief in religions is belief in dogmas. We use the same terms but we mean different things. I think you are adding apples with oranges. You are “confused”, not in “doubt” but “confused.” There is a difference between these two words also.


Usman:
Ar-Razi, IbnSina etc, will indeed be known around the world for good but Bukhari and Muslim, I don’t think that they did anything bad. They were like us, they questioned Allah and Muhammad, and lucky they that they learned to believe. And don’t worry I don’t like Mullahs of Afghanistan. I don’t even consider them Muslims; they are some one in there own category. Their hands are filled with blood of many innocent people.


Sina:
These Mullahs think they are the true Muslims. If their hands are filled with the blood of many innocent people so was the hands of Muhammad. This man killed so many people in his 10 years of stay in Medina that is mind-boggling. Read the story of the Jews of Medina in my site for details. If these Mullahs kill is because they are following the sunnah of the Prophet.


Usman:
But you said, Islam’s glory will fade. I think it is reverse; Islam is the world’s fastest spreading non-Christian religion (according to Guinness Book of World Record).


Sina:
Muslims are growing in numbers not because people are flocking to Islam. The number of the converts to Islam is minimal compared to the number of of those who leave Islam. Muslims are growing in number due to excessively high birth index. This is typical of poor countries where the majority of people are uneducated. In the West they are also the fastest growing population because they are escaping from their own homes as economical and/or political refugees and are immigrating to the Kafir land in the search of better life in huge numbers. Though the number of Muslims is on the rise, the religion itself is dying. The majority of those who become educated cannot accept the mumbo jumbo of Islam and walk away. Islam is the fastest religion in demise. The biggest enemy of Islam is education.


Usman:
Also I want you to discuss Quranic Ayahs with me, ask me about anyone you like, I will be able to satisfy you.


Sina:
Thank you very much, I guess you have done a great job of convincing my already. But now that you mention it. Please go to these questions and answer them.


Usman:
At one place you answered my question and said that we might never find answer to our questions as you aren’t certain about it. But how you can ask others to follow you when you aren’t sure about it, yourself.


Sina:
I think this is the third time I repeat the same thing. But looks like we are going in circles. Can you show me where I asked people to follow me? Isn’t my entire message a call to freethinking? Am I not saying doubt everything and find your own light? I don’t think you pay attention to what I write.


Usman:
As you talk about scientific reasoning too much, do you know that you don’t only have to prove some theory wrong experimentally but you also have to present/submit you own alternative solution or the corrected theory. And most common example is Hutchison Effect.


Sina:
No, that is not true at all. You can reject any theory before having another theory to replace it. These are two different things. You don't have to keep believing in something that is proven to be false just because you have not found the right answer yet.


Usman:
A question for you: DO YOU WANT A SECULAR WORLD? OR DO YOU WANT THE RELIGIONS TO MODIFY?


Sina:
I want religion stay out of public life completely, from schools, from government from anything that is public and belongs to all citizens. You can continue to believe in Miraj, Noah’s Ark and splitting the moon, but keep it to your self.


Usman:
At another place in article and at your website you talked about abusing Women under Islam. Come on, these are just illiterate people, or people who are under the influence of those people who “misuse religion” do so. In Islam, if some one finds his wife to be of bad character he is asked to leave her, and if he has to punish her it shouldn’t be harder then hitting with MUSWAAK. And we all know MASWAAK doesn’t hurt.


Sina:
Looks like you did not read much from my Website. If you read the articles about the status of women, you’ll see that what I and other writers have written is based on Quran and the way Muhammad dealt with women. Moreover the Quran (4:34) does not talk about "meswaak" or anything else. It just say beat your wives if they are disobedient. It is inhumane to beat a woman even if it is with a flower stem. What do you want to achieve by this beating? to establish your dominance? Are we humans animals to establish dominance over each other especially when it comes to women who are physically smaller than us? The whole concept is animalistic and shameful. Any man who try to defend Muhammad and make an apology for this brutal teaching is a subhuman.


Usman:
Ali now a major change in policy announcement. I have decided to discuss all this with you in a new way, as I have found a way to put an end to my confusion.

I have decided to discuss from now on as a Muslim, while you do as you want. We will discuss on the policy of “convince or be convinced”. In the end if I convince you then you might join Islam again and if you win then vice versa.

This will result in long term satisfaction on both sides.

I hope that you agree.

Wishes
Malik Usman


Sina:
I also like to announce a major change in policy. From now on I declare myself the messenger of God and will prove it to you using exactly the same proofs that Muhammad used, i.e. nothing. As you said, faith does not need proof. So if you have no problem accepting Muhammad as a true messenger of God without any proof you should not have any problem accepting me. And after I prove to you that I am a messenger of God, you must promise to become my follower and obey me until you live. My mission in life is to encourage people not to follow another human being. For others I will maintain this position, but since you are so intelligent that can prove Miraj, Jinn, Noah’s Ark and splitting the moon are scientific and since you think it is necessary to follow someone blindly but it is not necessary that this someone prove his claim because as you say "faith needs no proof", I will declare myself to be your Prophet. I receive daily emails from God. I will share those messages with you. If you are in doubt please tell me by what proof you accepted Muhammad and I will match or beat those proofs.
Sincerely

Ali Sina

Dear Usman,

I did not attack your person. There is no need to do that. If you can disprove Roy Avijit and the Contradictions in Quran written by Syed Kamran Mirza, please do so. I am sure they would be happy to hear that. There is no need to brag and say it is easy to refute them. Just refute them.

I am sorry you did not like my initiative to publish our correspondence. I personally love when others publish my works, unless there is something personal in it and then I will make sure to tell them not to. In our debate I see nothing of personal nature.

I believe it is my Mi’raj to Heaven that you call “bad humor”. I don’t see anything bad in it. This is my “true” story of visit with God and if you do not believe tell me why you reject my Mi’raj and accept Muhammad’s? My story is even more colorful with more realistic details. I posted the whole extraordinary episode in my site. Here it is.

About my great grand father splitting the Sun, as I said this is a “true” story. It is as true as is Muhammad’s splitting of the moon. You already said that splitting the moon is scientific, so I do not understand why it is so difficult for you to accept what I tell you about the miracles of my great grand father. I challenge you to disprove it. You can call me a liar, but can you prove that I am a liar? You also said the faith does not require proof, so why are you asking for photos? Do you have any photos from Muhammad’s splitting of the moon?

You asked why my great grand father split the Sun. He did that for the same reasons that Muhammad split the Moon. Why did Muhammad split the Moon? You asked “why he did not do something more useful like splitting the neutron and become the next Einstein or why he didn’t invented a PC or TV or other social work”. May I ask you why Muhammad did not do what you are suggesting? Please answer that.

Rational thinking is thinking using your own brain. One of the requirements of rational thinking is freethinking. Freethinking means thinking independently without relying on an authority to solve your problem. Freethinkers and rational thinkers listen to everyone but they do not come to any decision because a certain solution is given by a known and trusted authority. The final authority to decide what is wrong and what is right is themselves.

Another characteristic of the rational thinkers is that they rely on facts. They do not accept anything as true unless there are solid facts proving it. This does not mean that they reject all those things for which there is not evidence yet. But they will remain skeptics until facts are found.
However there are things that go against logic, science and human reason. Those things are not accepted by rational thinkers. They belong to the real of fantasy, myths and fable.

Let me clarify this with an example. The early pictures of the Mars revealed a rock formation that resembled a human face. Some people started making stories about it. They said this is the remnant of a lost civilization of early Martians whose planet was dying and they made this face to solicit help from extramartian creatures. Though this explanation was outlandish, it was not entirely absurd. A rational thinker in this situation will not accept this hypothesis because there is not enough evidence to support it. However because it is not absolutely impossible, he will remain skeptic.

People in NASA never believed in the man’s face on the Mars. However they still went there and took more pictures. The closer pictures showed that there is no such a face. The lights and shadows in the early pictures made it appear so. The reason NASA did not discard the whole thought is because that theory though very improbable was not impossible.

But what about the story of Muhammad splitting the Moon!? Do you think scientists should study this and talk about it? This is the most foolish thought. How someone from the Earth can split another planet? If such a phenomenon takes place, the two pieces of the Moon will hit the Earth and all life will disappear in this planet for at least few thousands of years. The Earth will be jolted from its orbit. The clouds of dust will cover everything. All vegetation will die. It will have the effect of hitting the Earth with two nitrogen bombs each billions of times more powerful than the most powerful bomb we have made yet. How is it that Muhammad could split the Moon in Mecca and the inhabitants of Mecca see one half of the Moon in the right of the Mount Hira and the other half in the left and the entire world remain oblivious of it? How is it that the Meccans did not accept him after witnessing such an amazing miracle? How come Muhammad rejected the demands of the Meccans who kept asking for miracles? (See Miracles of Muhammad)

You are offended that I made fun of the brain of the believers. If you don’t want to become the subject of laughter then please do not make ridiculous statements. Those who make these fables did not have a clue that Moon is a planet. They thought it is a lamp as it says in the Quran. They had no idea of the gravitational force. How splitting the Moon could be scientific? Would you like to elaborate on that?

What about the story of Noah? How can Mi’raj be scientific? Is jinn scientific? Has anyone ever seen a jinn? How about unicorns? Do they exist? These are childish beliefs. When you think like a child how can you expect to be treated like an adult? When you believe in irrational things how you want me to tell you what is rational thinking? Okay, rational thinking is thinking completely opposite to the way you think. That is rational thinking. This is not a personal attack. This is a fact.

All the above stories are unscientific. They are irrational and any one who believes in them is not a rational thinker. This is the definition of rational thinking. I am not escaping from explaining to you the meaning of rational thinking but it seems that you are not getting it.

In contrast religious thinking is using the sacred books as the authority to decide between right and wrong. A religious man does not use his brain. He consults his holy book instead.

You see my friend, before I started to disprove Islam; I read the entire Quran, most of the Hadiths and several other Islamic books about the life of the Muhammad. If you want to win your opponent, you have to know him. When you know him you can learn about his weaknesses and then attack him. You did not read anything of what I wrote. You don’t even pay attention to what I write specifically addressed to you. You keep repeating the same questions over and over. This is not rational thinking.

You ask, why I trust a surgeon and not a prophet. I explained it clearly. The reason I trust the doctor to operate on me is because he is licensed. In order to get his license he had to pass all the exams and do some training in a hospital. There is a trusted government institution certifying his qualification. I trust the doctor because I trust the system.

What is the proof of the prophets? Nothing. They just come and tell you they are prophets and you believe them. That is all. I made the same claim too, why do you still argue with me? Why don’t you believe me? What Muhammad produced as the proof that I haven’t?

There is a difference in trusting a certified doctor and an fake prophet. If the doctor was not certified I would not believe in him. Please do not keep asking the same question over and over. You either accept what I say or refute it by some sort of reasoning or just move on. I do not have time to explain the same thing several times.

You wrote, “Ok, ok you keep on telling that Muhammad killed his enemy, but do you know that they were always given the option to either except or be at war and at sometimes, it was to either believe or pay JIZYA?”

How about me doing to you the same thing that Muhammad did to others? How would you like if I tell you accept me as the messenger of God or face the consequences? Suppose I have the manpower and enough hungry gangsters and merciless brainwashed hounds like Muhammad did. Is it fair? Do you think that would be right for me to come and kill you, rape your wife and take your kids as slaves if you refuse my religion? Do you still want me to tell you what is rational thinking? This is rational thinking.
You wrote, “Ok what would you have done if you were a ruler with hostile enemy around you? Would you have waited until they get you killed in your own home.”

This is one of the most ridiculous lies that Muslims love to tell. No one wanted to attack the Muslims. ALL Muhammad’s wars were offensive. Please do not keep repeating the same lies.

Here is the text of the message that Mohammad sent to the Julanda brothers the rulers of Oman: "Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom." (See the original text)

It is clear that Muhammad was the aggressor. Was Persia threatening Islam? Was Syria attacking Islam? Was Spain, Morocco, India, Byzantine, Jerusalem or the rest of the world where Muslims invaded, looted, and forced their religion, threatening Islam? Tell me which country attacked Islam first. The problem with Muslims is that they lie and they think because this lie is for Islam it is okay. In fact Muslims would commit murder, assassination and rape all for Islam and that is okay.

As far as praying, fasting, not drinking wine, not consuming pork is concerned I don’t give a damn. Whether it is good or bad it is your business. You are not allowed to impose any of that on others or me. Keep your religion to yourself. That is what I say. Just as you do not appreciate the followers of other religions dictate their faiths on you, you should not dictate your religion on others.

You wrote, “if you say that I am cocooned in lie, then you must prove and satisfy me,”

I think that is what I have done all along. Your satisfaction depends on your capacity to understand rational thoughts. When I explained to you the absurdity of the stories of Noah, Mi’raj, jinns, splitting the Moon, etc. that was exactly what I was doing. I was proving that those stories are lies, they are childish, they are stupid and anyone who believes in these fairytales is cocooned in lies. There are more lies in Islam; like Muhammad’s war were defensive, Islam means peace, There is no compulsion in religion, women were given a some status in Islam that they did not have prior to it, and more. Islam is full of lies. Calling Muhammad’s expansionist wars defensive is a huge lie that all Muslims know but keep repeating. You know perfectly that this is a lie. Tell me one war were Muslims were attacked and they had to defend themselves.

As for your question about the first cause, it is a long subject, I have a couple of articles in my site. One of them is mine and the other belongs to Avijit Roy. Please read them and then try to refute them. I will not engage in any discussion on this topic until you read these two articles. I hate repetitions.

I said that Islam is not scientific because all the statements in Quran are unscientific. What you tried to explain is not science. Science is not how a mullah explains the obtuse verses of Quran. Rehashing some nonsense adorned with few scientific jargons is not the substitute for science. Splitting the Moon, Noah’s ark and all the nonsense in Quran are unscientific.

Islam is the fastest growing religion is yet another lie. Visit any Iranian forum and you will see the percentage of people who are against Islam. In Scandinavia there was a census, 50% of the Iranians said they are atheist. 40% said they are Muslim by name. Only 10% claimed to be practicing Muslims. Those who leave Islam do not go advertising about it. They fear persecution. They know too well that Muslims are criminals and will kill with clear conscience anyone who decides to apostatize. That is why you don’t hear much about it. But you hear that in the Internet because in the Internet people can say whatever is in their heart without fearing you. As I said, the number of the population in Muslim countries is on the rise because there is more natality among the poor and uneducated people. Muslims generally are poor and uneducated. The number of the Muslims in the West is also on the rise because they are immigrating here for better life more than any other group. But there are several times more people leaving Islam than those embracing it. However, those who leave, leave silently and those who embrace it are announced with trumpets. Those who leave are generally highly educated intellectuals; those who embrace it are the uneducated people from the intercities of America or the resentful blacks trying to establish an identity that is in contrast with the white man and the religion of the white man.

You wrote, “You don’t want religion to be in anyway into public life is just another thing like “we want no laws, we want a law free world”.

Personal principles are personal. If you want to raise your children according to your principles you are welcome to do so. But just as you do not appreciate a Jehowa Witness imposing his personal laws on you, the rest of the world does not appreciate you to impose Islamic laws on them. Belief must remain a private matter. If I decide to leave Islam, do not say my prayers, drink wine or take my wife to a beach, wearing bikini, it is none of your business. Your religious practices also should not be of my concern. In this world everyone should be free to choose the religion that he likes and be an atheist if he so prefers. Just as you do not appreciate me coming to your house with a gun and hand to you an ultimatum like the one Muhammad sent to the rulers of Oman, we do not appreciate Muslims forcing their religion on us. Reason dictates that to keep the peace people must be free to choose the religion of their choice. This is rational thinkin