Dutch lawmaker wins appeal against ban from UK

great news..

Well, I have finally got around to watching "Fitna".
Given that Geert Wilders is promoting this film, I can see why he has been banned as a "hate-monger" or some such.
Fitna is full of hate and abuse. It contains clear incitement to violence based on religious grounds.
Incitement to hate people based on their religion and many other horrible things.

Whilst I support free-speech, I cannot see how this concept can possibly be extended to encompass such incitement. It is utterly beyond the pale of humane behaviour.
Watching this film made me feel quite ill at times and utterly revolted by what I saw and heard.

No wonder Wilders was banned.

We all agree that fitna is full of hate. However, what you failed to notice is that the film has no comments. It is merely showing what Muslims do and what Muhammad told them to do.

The power of this movie is in the fact that it makes no comments and draws no conclusion. It is up to the viewer to decide whether those verses quoted are the reason behind the actions perpetrated by Muslims. And because the conclusion is undeniable the movie is so much feared.

The hate that you felt comes from the holy verses of the Quran. There are no hateful comments in this movie.

I just saw the movie and I must admit I was moved and a little bit disturbed. All it showed were facts about Muslims carrying out the commands of the Koran. Carrying out these commands over the centuries has allowed Islam to spread and continues to do so today. Islam spread through rape, murder, and genocide slowly but surely. What I find really disturbing is there is'nt a single nation on this planet where the Muslim population is'nt expanding.

To Ali Sina

You hit the nail Ali; you're absolutely right.

Mr. Wilders is very clever to put himself and the comments aside and let these Muslims (and in the Islamic countries) in the videos shows its true nature of their religious-ideology commands of Muhammad. The hate is not from Mr. Wilders, its from Muhammad and the Quran that is causing the hate. It is very clear.

muslim sukkks,,, they prophet not muhammad anymore but osama bin laden,,,

I saw "Fitna" when it first came out. Nowhere in this movie does Mr Wilders promote or incite hatred or violence towards all Muslims. The movie instead focuses on the words and actions of fanatical Muslims themselves who are the ones actually promoting and inciting religious hatred and violence towards all non-Muslims. The movie shows how these very same Muslim fanatical nut-cases are using the Quran to spread their ideology of hate.

Muslims as usual get upset because they claim that what Islam teaches and what Muslims actually practise are two different things. As if there were any difference. Islam is the cause and the fanatical Muslims are the symptoms. The two go hand-in-hand. If there were no Islam then there would be no Muslim fanatics. We can see it clearly. Only the blind and naive can't.

Hello Blogger Friend,

Your excellent post has been back-linked in
http://hinduonline.blogspot.com/

- a blog for Daily Posts, News, Views Compilation by a Common Hindu
- Hindu Online.

Ali Sina et al:
Having watched "Fitna" I'd thought my meaning was clear enough (post #27352), I stand corrected.
I now see I need to clarify my words.

The hate, incitement and racism I spoke of is indeed all said/written by the Muslims shown in "Fitna" and not by Wilders.
It is to that that I was objecting, not to WIlders telling the truth.

I said "No wonder WIlders was banned" because so often (here in UK) people who protest against Islamic extremism are labelled "fascist", "racist", "islamophobic", etc. in the attempt to either shout-down or silence.

The Home Office decision said they banned Wilders " to stop him spreading “hatred and violent messages”.
I wish I really believed they meant the Islamic hatred and violence that Fitna shows.
What I fear is that they banned him for his demonstration of Koranic links to Islamic "hatred and violent messages".

And why?
Well the Home Office gives the answer: “The decision to refuse Wilders admission was taken on the basis that his presence could have inflamed tensions between our communities and have led to inter-faith violence. We still maintain this view.”
In other words the Home Office feared (and I use the word advisedly) that allowing Wilders into the Country to show a film about Islamic violence would have "inflamed tensions" and led to (guess what!) Islamic violence.
By "inter-faith violence" the Home Office appears to mean violence by Muslims towards everybody else.
I can think of no faith-group (and I'll stretch the definition to include agnostics and atheists here) apart from Muslims who have a history of serious "inter-faith violence" in the UK (7/7, 21/7 etc).

I hope this clarifies my meaning.

To jonc Comment ID #27352
October 13, 2009 • 10:09 pm

Re hatred and the mind-set of hatred you cannot beat Allah.

Qur'an 60:4

YUSUFALI: There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, ENMITY AND HATRED FOR EVER,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"…

PICKTHAL: …And there hath arisen between us and you HOSTILITY AND HATE FOR EVER until ye believe in Allah only …

SHAKIR: …we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER until you believe in Allah alone…

To jonc Comment ID #27469
October 14, 2009 • 1:42 pm

Thanks for the clarification. I did not see it before posting my comment re hatred in the Quran.

Yes, violence may have ensued if Mr Wilders came into the country. Egged on my Lord Ahmed who promised 10,000 Muslims to come to parliament and protest.

But what is the option? The one that I would support is that the State/Government utilise the necessary resources to ensure that violence on the streets by anyone does not have the last word and that the threat of that violence does not dictate public policy. Such people should be dealt with by the application of existing laws.

Can citizens of this country and foreigner MPs invited by resident politicians rely on the State to protect them in the lawful exercise of their rights of freedom of speech and assembly?

Will the State bring the necessary resources of personnel and equipment in order to up hold the law?

I hope they do now. At some point in time the threat of violence must be met. Better sooner than later.

If moslem scum bags say kill the kafir, allahu akbar and say behead those who insult prophet and islam, then its freedom to preach and practice the religion of death and peace. If any one even as much says qrand the terror manual says this and says how can you allow moslems to kill kafirs, its forbidden.The world has really gone mad and perhaps its time for all kafirs to convert in to this madness called islam?

To,
hinduonline.blogspot.com,
Hey you "hinduonline.blogspot.com" don't use this place/forum to promote your blog, Stop posting your link here and there on the discussion boards of www.FaithFreedom.org , Here wise people come to discuss on topics related to true secularism, Your blog is not a secular one, Please get out of here and stop posting your link here if you have a little shame.

wafa sultan web-site.......www.dawrytv.com

Geert has won!

Is a great news from that rotten place UK. Politicians over there seem spineless reptilians.

His Fitna was an exceptionally good documentary. Nothing was said by Geert, the images, the speeches, the Qur'an and Muslims said it all.

This is the travesty of truth that believers of hate ideology are accusing Geert of hate!

But, lies don't travel far!

Wonderful news, a great victory for free speech. There ishope for Britain yet.

the bible says in the last days the door of hell will open and there will be terrible persecution , now it has become incorrect in europe to carry Bible to school soon it will be banned , no dout people are busying trying to pull down christanity evil will rise on the other side

I remember what the reaction of Dutch parliament was when Fitna first came out. I was appalled by it. Only the PVV and the small Christian SGP supported it. The left, Greens, ChristianDemocrats, even the Liberals condemned it as being prejudiced against Islam.

Many people and politicians in the West seem to be ingrained with a big sense of “Fair Play” and with the Golden Rule. Being an educated people they have a lot of self-criticism. About the history of the white people with its many “bad deeds”. This self-criticism really is a great feature of the West. Which it has more than the Islamic countries seem to have, according to Ibn Warraq’s book; Defending The West, which I recently read.

And this self-criticism and sense of fair play and golden rule seems to make Western people think:
- If we don’t want to be falsely or disproportionately accused, so we do not want to do that to Muslims.
- Whatever Muslims possibly can be accused of, we ourselves also can be accused of, so let us leave the Muslims alone.

And I add that our people and politicians only tend to look at and care about the approx. 1 million Muslims in Holland where they are a minority and generally behave democratically. When these are criticized they are viewed in a victim role.

But I think everyone should look globally concerning Islam. I think Muslims themselves tend to look global, in their loyalties. Muslims in Holland have many connections with family, relatives abroad. They often focus on Islamic news channels, hearing the news from the Islamic perspective all the time. If we look globally we see the glaring imbalance in rights between Muslims and say Christians-Atheists in Western countries and the same rights in Islamic countries, so heavily in favor of Islam.

And still many Muslims and their Western defenders say: Do not blame Islam for what Muslims do. I have great difficulty to deal with this ever recurring line of defense. But now I say; OK, if that is your position, then you must also acknowledge that: - Dreadful acts ARE committed by Muslims. – That even Muslims therefore can never trust all other Muslims in any position in uncontrolled power. – Therefore you Muslims should on aggregate support Democracy over all Dictatorial systems, including Theocracy and Shariah law. Because however much you Muslims wish to follow Allah's laws over manmade laws, by their own admission, Muslims simply cannot be trusted to do what Islam wants them to do, apparently. So can never be trusted with uncontrolled power.

So let us monitor the behavior of all Muslims worldwide, to report this and when Islam should not be blamed for proven bad behavior by proven Muslims, then by the same token it is proven that Muslims just cannot be controlled and trusted by other Muslims, to always do the right Islamic behavior. The only solution therefore; striving for eventual democracy worldwide, NOT shariah law worldwide.

What seems logical to you is democracy. However, to be muslim is to accept Shariah as inevitable, if you follow the Koran and Hadiths. The problem with Shariah Law is the subjective nature. Some groups follow one Hadith and some follow others. There is no consensus on which Hadiths are "credible".

The sentiment that most muslims are peaceful is wonderful. The question for governments is what to do with a group/religion that incites members to stab a man to death for making a movie. (ie Grandson of VanGogh). I believe everyone has a right to practice their religion, as long as that practice does not include harming others.

As Lincoln would not be a slave, I would not bow to muslim sentiment to gain security. Benjamin Franklin wrote "He who gives up Freedom for Security, deserves neither". Britian has placed themselves in a position to be held hostage by their muslim population.

It is not Israel has done nothing to bring peace. They have had peace with Egypt and Jordan for years now.

This just fills my heart with hope which is just so scarce in Europe. All Hail Geert Wilders.

I agree that "Fitna" is full of hatred by one group against another. It should have not been banned so the truth can come out and those who get offended by it then shoudl come out and argue against it and prove Wielder is wrong. It is ok for Muslim to criticize everyone else but wrong for everyone else to criticize them.