Awakened to Truth

Welcome to humanity! :) I am a mother also and I appreciate the encouragement you have given all of us mothers to teach our children the evils of Islam. There are so many of our sisters who still suffer and wish they had a fraction of the freedom we have. Your testimony is also a fresh reminder to us that we should never take for granted the gift we have been given. Thank you so much!

Cheers,
Megha

they have heart but they don't understand
they have eye but they dont see
they have ears but they dont hear
they just goat, what the use giving them brain?

its not hard is it, try to understand and start asking question?

if there is a creator of this universe it wouldn't be allah the mohamed's sex solicitor

This is wrong. This must be stopped. Muslims should fight the scourges within rather than leaving Islam like this.

This website has extreme political views. It has no right to spread false lies and propaganda. I have been so polite in discussing and accepting that there are issues with Muslims.

Why? Why is this enmity?

Wasim,

With all due respect, my friend, FFI has every right to express their views...it is called freedom of speech and freedom of expression. It has to be admitted that some posts are indeed rude and utterly disrespectful at times, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

No one is forcing Muslims to leave Islam. Ultimately, the choice is theirs. FFI simply provides the truth to the lies and apologies Muslim scholars and ordinary Muslims have spread and stated along the way. If there was a way to resolve the madness Islam has caused by not leaving Islam, I'm sure it would have been done by now, but all of the lies, violence and intolerance are right there in the Koran...plain enough for anyone to read....it is what it is and no one, apologists, moderate Muslims or extremists will ever help Islam unless they decide to leave it.

I'm sure there are plenty of Muslims who are not extremists. But the fact is, they still practice and follow a mad man for a prophet..no matter how moderate or extreme one wishes to become. The only way to resolve this is to put an end to this evil cult they call a peaceful and tolerant religion....my friend, it is neither.

Well done you have left islam. Congratulations. Now where do you go from here. You havent seen the horrible sights of islam because there aint any. I have rebuttal nearly everyone on here who brought out verses out of context and may I say via logical thinking I have easily managed to refute their questions.

You have left islam, but not that I care but I will ask you this question anyway. Everything in this world has a reason. We bring up children for a reason, we get education for a reason, everything we do has a reason to it. Everything in existance in this universe has a reason even an atom.

A cell which we cannot see unless we use a microscope has nearly a million functions, which is carried out by so many different parts of the cell, each has its own reason to be inside the cell. Now the question is WHAT IS THE REASON FOR OUR EXISTANCE?

LS
***You havent seen the horrible sights of islam because there aint any. I have rebuttal nearly everyone on here who brought out verses out of context and may I say via logical thinking I have easily managed to refute their questions*** LOL

have you ever seen individual stoning to death, or beheading in the name of islam, if your heart says horrible, than you being hypocrite when you belive in islam like this lady says, you never rebutted, we ask you to chase the bone but you just running chasing your tail

***A cell which we cannot see unless we use a microscope has nearly a million functions, which is carried out by so many different parts of the cell, each has its own reason to be inside the cell. Now the question is WHAT IS THE REASON FOR OUR EXISTANCE?***

don't look on the cell with microscope buddy, you might miss out the big picture out there that the whole allah is hoax

if there is creator of this universe, it will not be allah, mohamed's pimp

jamilla, listen to little man inside your heart (in muslim heart, this guy been prisoned), and you less regret at the end

london spirit the reason for our existence is not to follow the so called book of a sex paedophile highway bandit robber not to follow the dehumanising customs of illiterate and ignorant 7 centuary arabia not to follow a book which fools believe is the word of almighty which has been copy edited so much that many variants were burnt and a copyedited censored version is kept as the guidance of a filthy cannibal terrorist misogynist allah a foolish and truly evil book of so many absurdities that requires commentaries and other books to explain it and the customs of islam surely only moronical maniacs can believe that this is the work of a supernatural being

Ls,

Yes, I have seen the horrors of Islam and there are plenty! I lived with a man who is a Muslim and was beaten...that was one horror! I saw women who were yelled at by their husbands for no good reason...another horror! I saw my ex sister-in-law with black eyes, cut hair so short she had to wear a wig, bruises...you tell me if that is not horror, moron!

We see horrors everyday due to Islam and its evil actions!

That is ok....karma will oneday show itself to these evil doers...including you!

oam shanti shanti

IBNSAHR WROTE: have you ever seen individual stoning to death, or beheading in the name of islam, if your heart says horrible, than you being hypocrite when you belive in islam like this lady says, you never rebutted, we ask you to chase the bone but you just running chasing your tail

ANSWER: Mate stoning to death is given to people who comit adultry. Now to avoid this punishment simply dont do adultry. That is the solution. So I cannot be a hypocrite by saming this isnt humane as avoidance of this punishment can be done.

In regards to beheading. Just because you see some muslims doing it including alot of non-muslims, why do you think it is religion teaching this. Where in the quran does it give the law to behead someone. Stop using media related of fanatical people to justify your claims.

Israel bombed palestine, which did not only disintegrate peoples heads but their arms and legs and other parts of their bodies. Now am i to blame judasim. When are you people gonna understand that it is stupid mentality that causes this horrible sights not religion.

MEGHA WROTE: Yes, I have seen the horrors of Islam and there are plenty! I lived with a man who is a Muslim and was beaten…that was one horror! I saw women who were yelled at by their husbands for no good reason…another horror! I saw my ex sister-in-law with black eyes, cut hair so short she had to wear a wig, bruises…you tell me if that is not horror, moron!

ANSWER: Your the absolute moron not me. Wife beating happens in every country. They got a group i nthe UK called RSPCC for children who get beaten and the association for woman dedicated to stopping wife beating. Now UK is not a muslim nation so why have they got this association?

Why does wife beating happen in many non-islamic states. In islam it clearly says in the quran

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them , and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect." (Ar-Rum 30:21)

"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr (dowry, bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good." (An-Nisa’ 4:19)

And in the hadith

Among the Muslims, the most perfect as regards his faith is the one whose character is most excellent, and the best among you are those who treat their wives well." (At-Tirmidhi)

Now you tell me is wife beating allowed in islam.

I assume from your words of oam shanti shanti that your a hindu. Now do you know the right of woman in hindusim. Some places in india wife beating is openly done with no consequesnces. So dont tell me you seen horror and dont blame my relgion on actions of individuals. Open your eyes to the world and see horror.

Istated from the quran about wife beating being condoned. So now you produce a verse from the quran that says man are allowed to beat their wife. And please bring it in context.

CALEBSINGH007 WROTE: london spirit the reason for our existence is not to follow the so called book of a sex paedophile highway bandit robber

ANSWER: Prove to me that he carried out these actions with no other means. You called him a highway bandit robber. Tell me what did he rob from these caravans and lets see your understanding of islam. If you knew than you wouldnt say these things.

Let me ask you a question. If you left your home and I took your things and tried to sell it off without your permission. And you faught me to get your possessions back. Am i the robber or are you the robber?

LS
***Mate stoning to death is given to people who comit adultry. Now to avoid this punishment simply dont do adultry. That is the solution***

since you agree, please find me the verse in quran that says "stoning to death is given to people who comit adultry", where in quran to justify that?

dont do adultry, thats not the point, god who will punishs and god who will rewards, not us, what religion can do, just persuasion through sermon or etc. not intimidation or threat.

you said you rebute any question easily, but never answer my question, why such teaching from religion of peace can make someone willing to kill themself and indiscriminatly killing others, just because some one in palestine got killed, one muslim moron that live half world away, like one who lives in indonesia willing to blow themself up, in the name of revenge, even they never met palestinian.

***Where in the quran does it give the law to behead someone***

where in the quran does it says to kill christian and beheading them like reported on the news on this site? will you stand by those act or leave this hypocrite barbaric teaching, how much longer can you betrayed your heart

LS, you forgot to quote, women alllowed to be beaten, if after not giving her sex didn't address the problem

Yes, I'm a Hindu and damn proud of it!

Please do not make me laugh....moron! The koran clearly states that beating is permitted (wife beating). Islam does not value women....if they didn't the subject of domestic violence would not be so "hush hush." I have seen families begging the family members not to get a divorce for the children's sake...why? so the children can be as screwed up as their fathers...yelling, lying, beating their wives...etc?

Yes, wife beating occurs in all countries around the world and many unIslamic countries keep it hush hush as well, but the difference in my country and an Islamic country is that no one will shame me for leaving his sorry ass! Law enforcement will do their part to protect me...the plice in Islamic countries do little to nothing for women in their countries......tell them to go back to their sorry ass wife beating husbands!

Don't tell me there aren't horrors in your religion....we know what happens beyond the media...at least those of us who have lived in an Islamic country.

I hope you don't beat your wife if you have one and if you don't....better off are the women!

Wasim asked; Why is this enmity? And LondonSpirit, with his usual vigour and logic defended Islam.

Maybe we should distinquish 3 positions;
I. Islam is by and large equal, in all relevant aspects, to all other beliefs and systems of ordering society. Which means it also has equal rights.
II. Islam is worse than most other beliefs/ organizing systems/ it is inferior to them and it is detrimental to mankind.
III. Islam is superior to all other beliefsystems, it is the only true one, and it has the right to dominate, and it has the right and ambition to dominate even more, and eventually the whole world, without fair elections.

If LondonSpirit and Wasim were merely responding to position II that they perceived we were taking and if they would adhere to position I, I would understand their position. Many in the Western world seem also to think this and hence many of them support Islam as a peaceful religion, up to George Bush, Tony Blair, Barack Obama, Gordon Brown and many mainstream political parties.

But my view is not that we have to fight Islam until it is finished but merely until it is humble and modest and content with its fair share and no more. Until a large part of the Muslims support Democratic rules and give up present and future domination without fair elections. And further until a large part of the Muslims denounce misuse of power by other Muslims. When a large part of Muslims is in favor of establishing democracy in all Islamic nations. Because there Islam holds a power/ space/ domain that is bigger than it has a right to have, in our view (because it is not superior, but only equal to others). Likewise there men often hold more power at the cost of women than we perceive they have a right to.

What do Islamic preachers and many Muslims tell their followers, co-religionists most of the time? Is it not that Islam is the only true religion, that it is superior to all others, that it has the right to dominate now and it is desirable that it will dominate even more? And don't they tell many bad and belittling stories about the followers of other beliefs, especially the Jews and the Americans? Don't many Muslims tell their children the same? So is not our "enmity" for 90 % explained by that alone? In Islamic countries do Muslims not kill and intimidate people not to leave Islam for some other belief, or no belief? And on what do they base their right to do this?

In my view it is our purpose to move Muslims either to apostasy or to a much more humble and modest role in the world, and to much more humble and modest designs on the world. So that they only want to maintain and acguire power through fair elections, like most other people agree to now. So that men relinguish an equal part of power to women. And thus so that followers of other beliefs and women can maintain and acguire their fair share, no more, no less.

I learned from Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, influential American journalists, that:
- We do not have to prove the falsehood of Islam. It is up to Islam to prove its truth and to us it is only up to examine and judge the evidence Muslims provide us with.
- We do not have to prove that Islam is worse than, inferior to other beliefs/ organizing systems/ detrimental to mankind, we only have to examine all the available facts/ evidence and to refute the claims and arguments of Muslims that Islam is superior and entitled to more than a fair share in power.

That is why we provide the world with this avalanche of facts about Islam on FFI, Islam Watch, Jihad Watch, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Act for America and many others. So that from now on Muslims are no longer able to maintain Islam is the only truth and superior, because all evil deeds other belief-followers did and do, can now by and large be matched by what Muslims did and do. SO: Islam was not able to stop that, SO; it did not make all that much of a change for the better; SO; in power and ambition Muslims should be as humble and modest as all others, everywhere.

And I so hope that eventually Muslims and we, followers of other beliefs, we democratic people, can come to agree on this.

LONDON SH!T

See these these videos & enjoy

.http://www.terrorismawareness.org/videos/101/brutal-rituals-in-the-name-of-allah/

IBNSAHR WROTE: you said you rebute any question easily, but never answer my question,

ANSWER: This is total utter nonsense. And anyone with an open mind who have been reading alot of my posts would see that. It is you who avoids answering my questions. And i got proff on this very posts. I said can any one find me a verse from the quran that allows wife beating. And you avoided the question and you posed a question upon me. WHAT DOES THAT SHOW. And further more you got Megha claiming that there are many verses without no proof. This just shows to me that you speak out of your ass.

IBNSHAR WROTE: since you agree, please find me the verse in quran that says “stoning to death is given to people who comit adultry”, where in quran to justify that?

ANSWER: Wow thank you IBNSAHR for telling me that. There isnt no verse in the quran that says for stoning to death for commiting adultry. Thank you this just goes completely in my favour. Thanks for pointing that out mate.

IBNSHAR WROTE: where in the quran does it says to kill christian and beheading them like reported on the news on this site? will you stand by those act or leave this hypocrite barbaric teaching, how much longer can you betrayed your heart

ANSWER: Is your mind so focused on what individuals do that you cant see what people of other faiths do around you. Lets me give you the latest information

1. Jewish guy goes to a gay bar in jerusulam and just fires at everyone in the bar killing quite a few people.

2. Spanish terrorist group does 3 bomb blasts in majorca. They want to do a more deadly attack just like the spanish train bombings. This is their plans

3. Russian solders behead a muslim person in chechnya

4. Lady killed in germany because she wore a head scarf.

All these actions happened this month alone. Now you tell me am i to blame christianity and judasim for this. Stop speaking nonsense and look beyond the scope. The world news dont just consist of what goes on in islamic nations. I am not betraying my heart. Because my religion doesnt teach any of this. Like I said this has been my challenge for over 5 months now. Find me a single verse in the quran where it says to kill the innocent non-muslims. Yet you still cant find anything. Good luck mate.

MEGHA WROTE: Please do not make me laugh….moron! The koran clearly states that beating is permitted (wife beating). Islam does not value women….if they didn’t the subject of domestic violence would not be so “hush hush.

ANSWER: You just showed complete ignorance here. Instead of actually trying to look at the verse i pointed out and refute them all you did is speak nonsense and further says that islam permits this.
Ok Megha I want to belive you, SO NOW FIND ME THE PROOF.

NOW I WILL SHOW YOU PROOF IN REGARDS TO WOMANS RIGHTS IN ISLAM OVER HINDUSIM.

HINDU WOMAN
: 1. The Hindu Woman has no right to divorce her husband.
: 2. She has no property or inheritance rights.
: 3. Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending bridegroom/family.
: 4. The family of the girl has to offer an enormous dowry to the bridegroom/family.
: 5. If her husband dies she should commit Sati (being cremated with her dead husband). Since today's law forbids Sati, society mainly punishes her in other "holy" ways (see below).
: 6. She cannot remarry.
: 7. The widow is considered to be a curse and must not be seen in public.She cannot wear jewelry or colorful clothes. (She should not even take part in her children's marriage!)

For verses look at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/in3.htm

MUSLIM WOMAN

: 1. The Muslim woman has the same right as the Muslim man in all matters including divorce.
: 2. She enjoys property and inheritance rights. (Which other religion grants women these rights?). She can also conduct her own separate business.
: 3. She can marry any Muslim of her choice. If her parents choose a partner for her, her consent must be taken.
: 4. The dowry in Islam is a gift from a husband to his wife (not the other way around)
: 5. A Muslim widow is encouraged to remarry, and her remarriage is the responsibility of the Muslim society.
: 6. Mixed marriage is encouraged and is a means to prevent racism creeping in society.
: 7. A Muslim mother is given the highest form of respect.

For verses look at quran , surah nisa.

Now MEGHA you wanna tell me if hindu woman have rights in islam. For god sake you have to bury the wife with the husband if he dies. You have to burn her alive.

A girl in hindusim is considered a burden . is that what you call woman rights

This is a statistic from UN.
A recent U.N. report said that up to 50 million girls and women were missing from India's population, the reslut of systematic discrimination extending to the abortion of female fetuses. [ Verma 12.8.97 ] In 1921 there were more than 97 women for every 100 men in India. Seventy years later, the number dropped to 92.7 [ Verma 12.8.97 ]

I know where my heart lies. I dont easily get decieved but If there was a single verse from the quran like that of the hindu scripture that teaches these things, i would leave islam.

LondonSpirit and Wasam always bring the Israeli Zionist defense into play when individuals criticize Islam.

The Arabs started the violence when they refused to recognize the nascent Israel, and attacked with five armies, but recognized the nascent Jordan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Bangledesh, et. al.

You are the religiouscists who discriminate against others far more than Israel does. Israel discriminates because to the homicide attacks against civilians, and the targeting of school buses and day care centers. Besides Israel contributes far more to humanity with their scientific and technological research.

You bring death to yourselves, then whine when your ass is kicked. Stop with the victim game, and take responsibility for your violence and need to reform.

A Deist, Feminist, Goy, Zionist.

Dreamland,

The hangings in the first video were Iranian homosexuals, this did not occur under Hamas, albeit they do crucify and murder opponents.

ASPACIA please dont say arabs started the war. That is in noway true. And you know that. Prior to world war 2 jewish people were scattered accross Europe as well all know. Hitler himeself killed 6 million of them and than these jews migrated to palestine.

Now palestinians allowed them into their country. jewish brought land in palestine and than declared this land as theirs and renamaed it to israel. Now if you look at the map of palestine in 1950 you would see the small amount of land the jewish people occupied. And now if you look at the palestinian map you would see how much of the land israel occupies over palestine. Awhole population has been confined to a small narrow bank. And you ask yourself why these people are fighting.

And the worse thing is what it America or UN doing about it. NOTHING. Rather they are donating billions of dollars to israel so that they could buy new military equipment. America is paying over $1000 dollars per person of tax payers money to ISRAEL. And your telling me that they provide more to the world.

Yes they provide more to the world in terms of corruptness. Nothing else. I will give you one thing that shows their power and that no one can complain about what they do.

Israel as we all know is in the middle east. Than why do they play in the european championships in soccer. This just shows their corruptness.

LS, im not gonna let you go round and round, you said: “Mate stoning to death is given to people who comit adultry”, where you find justification on that?, in quran or in hadits?

If you said ”There isnt no verse in the quran that says for stoning to death for commiting adultery” then why you muslim doing it, and why you make statement “stoning to death is given to people who comit adultry “. Are you just talking from your empty brain, where you got that idea from?

When other doing their evil deeds, they don’t quote their holy book prior to the killing, that’s what make islam is different, and seems you don’t aware of.

have you ever seen palestinian map before islam?

LS
***anyone with an open mind who have been reading alot of my posts would see that. It is you who avoids answering my questions. And i got proff on this very posts. I said can any one find me a verse from the quran that allows wife beating. And you avoided the question and you posed a question upon me. WHAT DOES THAT SHOW***

Mate, its quran trivia, in wich surah you will find “women alllowed to be beaten, if after not giving her sex didn’t address the problem”?

Price is: women who never menses (blow up doll), a bit of exercise before you go to heavenly brothel, the rewards you will reap by hating jew and christian

Ask any sane person, only people who follow islam will come out with stupid comment like you above. Or unless, read your quran again

LS,

Koran- 4:34...happy reading!

If Muslim mothers are so highly reguarded, why are their children taken away after a certain age? Why are the children taken from her should she decide to remarry? Don't believe me? Look up custody laws of various Islamic countries! And....if Muslim women have so many rights, why is she ONLY allowed to marry a Muslim man? Why can't she marry a Christian? That is not fair or giving her free choice, is it? Oh, that is right....it is protecting her from the infidels!

If females have so many rights, why are 8-year-olds getting married, but are not old enough to ask for divorces.....yet...they're old enough to have sex with pedo Mo followers!

Why is a woman worth half a man....two women for 1 man when witnessing something such as marriage, divorce...etc....and she only gets half the goods when her husband, father etc. dies....yes...u are right....women are valued in Islam....forgive me....my mistake!

Oh, and women must cover themselves so as to protect themselves....what? Are you Muslim bastards such animals that you demand your women to be covered.....of course.....you follow in the footsteps of a sex-crazed ninfo pedo monster!

I may not can quote verses from the koran, but I know what I've experienced and you have no right to tell me what I have seen is and was not a horror....cuz it was!

LS,
you can pretend or convincing your self that you give good rebuttal from what you think is logical thinking to me and to other non-muslim in FFi, but don’t do that to ex-muslim woman, it just make them stronger by your hypocrisy about islam, they used to be one of your own. islam is all about hypocricy, you tell me one thing and different on practice

LondonSpirit and Megha,

About "Beating Women in Islam" Ibn Kammuna wrote an article on 24-02-2009. He also gave Quran 4;34. This article is easy to find in the archives of FFI under "Articles"-"Women in Islam". I think it is very hard for you to refute this whole section, LondonSpirit. And indeed it is very hard to refute that "your religion teaches this".

This is what he says:

"Believe it or not, the beating of a wife in Islam is not a gentle tap as Mr. Badawi portrays. It is a good beating. The Qur’an does not say its a gentle tap. Hadiths support my claims here too. Here is the above Qur’anic verse that Mr. Badawi just quoted in Arabic and in the three reliable English translations:

ٱلرِّجَالُ قَوَّٲمُونَ عَلَى ٱلنِّسَآءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ ٱللَّهُ بَعۡضَهُمۡ عَلَىٰ بَعۡضٍ۬ وَبِمَآ أَنفَقُواْ مِنۡ أَمۡوَٲلِهِمۡ‌ۚ فَٱلصَّـٰلِحَـٰتُ قَـٰنِتَـٰتٌ حَـٰفِظَـٰتٌ۬ لِّلۡغَيۡبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ ٱللَّهُ‌ۚ وَٱلَّـٰتِى تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَٱهۡجُرُوهُنَّ فِى ٱلۡمَضَاجِعِ وَٱضۡرِبُوهُنَّ‌ۖ فَإِنۡ أَطَعۡنَڪُمۡ فَلَا تَبۡغُواْ عَلَيۡہِنَّ سَبِيلاً‌ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّ۬ا ڪَبِيرً۬ا (٣٤)

004.034
• YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
• PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
• SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
I would like to draw the reader’s attention that the exact wording translation from Arabic is “beat them”. There is no (At last). There is no (lightly). Adding such words is just a lie to make good of an evil Qur’anic verse. This is why I mentioned earlier that Mr. Badawi is lying. In fact, th

Ibn Kammuna 24/02/09 Beating Women in Islam.

As usual it is disputed on Islamic sites, but Ibn Kammuna, whose native mother tonque was Arabic, also refuted the arguments of the Islamic sites very well. And anyway, even if you and other Muslims are not interpreting this verse this way and do not practice it thus, still many authoritative Muslims sources propagate this interpretation. Same as with the apostates-discussion. I. The Quran gives very ambiguous statements. II. It gets interpreted in various ways. III. But you only try to refute people from FFI. And not those fellow-Muslims who interpret the verses from Quran and Hadith the same as people from FFI.

It is my hope that people like you eventually dare oppose these authorities of Islam in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran on their interpretations of Islam. In order to help us, who abhor and denounce many interpretations of Quran and Hadith, if not their true meanings. These Islam-authorities and their followers are the real target of many of the articles of FFI, Islam Watch, Jihad Watch. Not Muslims like you, interpreting and practicing Quran and Hadith differently. It is they, by their teachings and practices that constantly give food for articles on FFI. It is they who you should hold accountable for causing others to blame the religion for what many individuals do, in our view.

And LondonSpirit, about Israel-Palestine,

We and others have been over this countless times. You looked at old maps, then? You considered what the Jews did in 1948? Because by then they had done their greatest mischief, I believe. Or at least by 1967. Now the vast majority of Israeli's and Palestinians that were the agressors and the refugees (in your eyes) are now dead. Or very old. This means the misdeeds of the Israeli's, the sufferance of the Palestinians (in your eyes) are in the past. And here on FFI and Islam watch we have shown so much of Islamic History. In which what the Israeli's did was done on a so much bigger scale by the Muslims, concerning land-conquering, killing, enslaving, raping, you name all the evil deeds the Israeli's did to the Palestinians. The Muslims in the past did them a thousandfold.

We also pointed out so many times that the number of Palestinian refugees from what is now Israel was more or less matched by the numbers of Jewish people that were ousted or left of own accord, out from Islamic Arabic countries.

It is only your Islamic viewpoint, in my opinion, that lets you hold the Jews accountable and the Muslims not, because both their actions were in the past now. And it is only your Islamic viewpoint that let's you feel compassion with the Palestinian victims of Israel and not with the Christian, Hindu, Animist victims of Muslims.

If you were an independent observer of world-history you would see that there was countless land-conquering but eventually people acquiesced to the new situation, recognizing the "right of the strongest", however unjust. So many Christians and Hindus have taken this pragmatic path in regard to militarily superior Muslim conquering armies. But Muslims themselves, now being beaten, cannot do the same rational thing.

In our view it is the Islamic side that ever since the Oslo-talks started in the 90ies could have reached an honourable peace, based on just compensation, resettlement of refugees and descendants elsewhere etc, etc. but did not , thus they prolonged the misery of the Palestinian people unnecessarily.

Anyway, Israel is all the land the Jews have. But the Arabs have plenty land. And the possession of land, even if achieved, does not give happiness in the long run for the Palestinian people. When did land ever give happiness, other than for a short period of time? Peace, compensation, building prosperity etc. would give the Palestinian people much more happiness, instead of misery. So from the standpoint of providing happiness for the Palestinian people, the Islamic position is very wrong.

To Megha

Going by your own logic, if you can justify being a Hindu, and proudly as well, despite all of the points Londonspirit has pointed out to you about women in Hinduism and its scriptures, then how are you in a position to criticise the Islamic stance on women (one verse from the Quran and that as well as a last resort?) Your hypocrisy is clear for all to see. It's kinda like the bonfire telling the campfire that he's too hot!

To Demsci

Hi,

Look we've been through this before; Palestine issue. But just to simplify things for you a little please ponder over the following:

(1) A country called Palestine existed both legal and sovereign.
(2) Jewish refugees shipped to Palestine during and after the aftermath of WW2. People who could not even trace their lineage back to the Holy Land.
(3) The proposal to rob the Palestinians and create an "Illegal" entity on this sovereign land was planned much in advance (Refer Balfour Declaration)
(4) The influx of Jewish people to Palestine was possible through the orchestration of the British because Palestine was a British colony.
(5) The planned pulled off when Israel was declared a country in an already existing and sovereign country.
(6) No doubt when your home is unjustly taken away from you you fight to get it back. Palestinian anger and Arab anger led to war and hostilities with Israel.
(7) Millions of Palestinian refugees fled and kicked out of their homes.
(8) Palestine no longer exists because God told the Jews that Palestine does not belong to its rightful occupiers.

And, dont you dare equate this gross injustice to a whole nation and identity of peoples with other independent atrocities or expulsions which may or may not have occurred in history which had nothing to do with the Palestinians, who are fighting for their very identity.

kabirlaw

***(6) No doubt when your home is unjustly taken away from you you fight to get it back. Palestinian anger and Arab anger led to war and hostilities with Israel.***

exactly what jew did, fighting for their land

how you like it, when you house been occupied by rat, when you been taken away to jail, same like when the jew get kicked out by who ever kicked them out of there in beginnig of history, and suddenly this people who live by the sea start swamping the land, and dumb enough to accept islam so muslim ruler let their flourish, and now they claim its theirs?

Kabirlaw,

If you friend, Londonspirit would read actual Hindu scripture instead of information from a site in which Paki Muslim idiots so generously hand out false information, maybe I would agree with your state about me.....but I don't and he does read from an unreliable source!

I see you avoided my questions about Muslim women. You took your precious time to criticize me, but did you bother looking up any Hindu scripture...probably not, I would safely guess!

As for LS....or Kabirlaw, I'll patiently await answers to the above questions regarding Muslim women!

And thanks, Dempsi....I knew IK has written on the subject of wife beating b4, but thanks for the reminder....I'll go take a look at them....silent reader for a long time b4 joining....take care, my friend and have a great day.
:)

Megha

(Paki Muslim Idiots now eh? Your true inner feelings and the tolerance of a Hindu is shining through now isn't it)

I hardly need to consult any source because it is common knowledge that Hinduism promotes a caste system,
It is common knowledge that there is the Hindu tradition of the widowed wife throwing herself onto the burning funeral pyre of her late husband,
It is common knowledge that Hinduism does not promote the intermingling of castes,
It is common knowledge that Hinduism instructs the widow to wear plain clothes and not to wear pretty jewellery (those that have not commited sati),
It is common knowledge that Hinduism considers divorcees or widows as bad omens,
It is common knowledge that women have to marry in accordance with their own caste and also get astrological approval of the union from a Pandit Ji,
It is common knowledge that there is a whole class of people which Hindus call "The Untouchables" (how flattering)
It is common knowledge that the woman's family have to give a dowry to the husband's side (instead of the other way round like in Horrific Islam)

So please. Narrate the horrors of Islam and the beauty of Hinduism to some other fool.

Hi, Kabirlaw,

As ever inspiring me. Please consider (and allow a little bit in the numbers, I am not precise maybe):
- Approx. 600.000 Palestinians fled, approx. 600.000 Jews came in, fleeing from Arab countries.
That alone should count for justice and balance.
- # 135. Roman emperor Hadrian ousted the Jews from their own country. Because they had revolted. You must believe that happened, because you know so much of the Bible, and hence that the Jews came to then Kanaan approx. 1200 BC. At the same time Philistines came and occupied what is now roughly Gaza.
Please feel for the Jews who ever after 135 were strangers in other countries and often oppressed and persecuted. You can feel for other victims besides Islamic ones, can you?
- # 640. The Muslims did in Syria-Palestine what you blame the Jews for; violent conquest, killing, enslavement, establishing jizya, settlement-policy and what do you blame Israel more for? Any feelings for the then living Roman Christian population? What was the right of the conquering Muslims precisely?
- 1948. After taking Jordan and Palestine over from Turkey (so no independent Palestinian state existed), the British bequeathed the big chunk of (Trans)Jordan to the Arabs and a small part to the Jews. So if you count Jordan in; The Arabs now already have 80 % of the territory. It is such a pity that King Abdullah and his Bedouins run Jordan, otherwise there already would have been a Palestinian State.

And ONLY because the Jews did their heinous, terrible, but not-worst-in-human-history-ever acts in 1948 and the Romans in 135 and the Muslims in 640, only because of that you forgive and forget what the Romans and Muslims did but not what the Jews did. This is why time is on the side of the Israeli's; because we humans in time forgive and forget. The Israeli's just have to hang in there and sooner or later the Arabs will realise they are bothering about ancient history, that nobody is guilty anymore, the guilty and original victims will be all dead, just like the original Jews and Romans in 135, the original Romans and Muslims in 640. And so it is with Turkey, but also America, and so many other conquered lands.

Identity of Palestinians; what waste. All it takes is ONE generation to migrate, then the children will take root in the new country and get their identity from there, countless muslims and others have done it. I submit to you that having a home-country is what 6 billion people already have, and it delivers no extra happiness, 99 % do not even realize it for one second how lucky they are with their land. The Palestinian goal frankly is ridiculous. Even if I grant you that their house was stolen; they have been offered plenty compensation, they could have gone for even more, they would have got it from a grateful Israel, America, Europe. Instead; out of ISLAMIC idealism, we strongly suspect, they have this LAND-BACK-goal, the one thing Israel can't give. And so we hold the Palestinian leadership and their Islamic backers and warmongers for 60 to 90 % responsible for all the misery of their people. The main goal for humans is happiness. Having your own country is a ridiculous goal in comparison with that. And are you not incredibly naive to think that once they have their country back they get the same sort of average rotten-to-good government that everybody already has? Judging by the corruption of the PA, sooner rotten than good.

Hi, Kabirlaw,

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings if I do that sometimes. I respect you and LondonSpirit. You guys often, but not always, have me baffled, unable to refute your arguments, although I think about them a lot. I see you 2 as zealous defenders of your religion and that is admirable. I am on FFI because I long to defend dem(ocracy) and sci(ence) and consider myself an Darwinist. And I love it to express my views here.

Although I am fully aware of their faults and shortcomings I also love America and Israel. Even although I think the American Indians, and negro's too, were very bad treated by us whites. But that's all in the past now. I wish the Palestinian young people could enjoy all the possibilities of the 21st century instead of wanting to farm on some desertland, that's all I meant above.

But I like to state also that you 2 can criticize Christians, but that would not impress the Hindus and Darwinists among us, same with taking Hinduism to task with Megha, it does not help Islam one iota with me, a Darwinist. And if you criticize Darwinism, well then the Christians and Hindus don't give a hoot.

I want you to know that I have no judgment on Islam as being inferior to or worse than other beliefs, ways of life, ways of organizing societies. To me FFI, Islam Watch, Jihad Watch, Actfor America are only for making sure that Islam is no longer seen as superior to other beliefs by the Muslims themselves. And you 2 always are very good at defending your religion when it is put down. But I am in it only to ensure all beliefs and their followers get their fair share, at the cost of those Muslims who now have more than their fair share in governments, in power/ space/ domain, in Islamic countries. And I try to defend us against so to speak imperialistic Muslims. And I am in it for equal rights of women everywhere eventually, at the cost of "Patriarchalist, male chauvinists' who oppress women.

People like us get from ex-muslims an impressively good deal nowadays, like I first noticed with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then with Ali Sina and Geert Wilders. So I now prefer ex-muslims over Muslims. BUT I respect and like Muslims very much, I have great Muslim-colleagues, male and female. It is just that like in issues like Israel-Palestine and about Americans fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Islamic oppression in Islamic countries, the killing of apostates, the oppression of women, gays and minorities, the Muslims everywhere seem so intransigent, unwilling even to talk, let alone make concessions.

But once Muslims start supporting Democracy, Gender-Equality, an Israeli state, and other wishes we have, then we could do business, have peaceful coexistence and even a lot of friendship. We could have great common goals, and other common enemies. Or just opponents? Like us Westerners, Indians and Muslims versus China?!

To Demsci

I dont know which philosophy you follow but the following premise sums you up (please do correct me if you think i'm wrong).

You say:

(1) Palestinians should accept Israel because their Muslim counterparts have also engaged in stealing land historically
(2) the end goal ought to be happiness and not land as land has never really made anyone happy or alleviated their misery
(3) 600,000 jews were kicked out/fled/migrated from Arab countries and 600,000 Palestinians fled when Israel was established, so its even stevens
(4) Jordan is really the true Palestine and so the Palestinians have more land than the jews
(5) Identity is not important as all it takes is the people to relocate and their new territory becomes their identity
(6) Time heals all wounds.

I say:

(1) Big flaw in your thinking here Demsci, whose the barbaric medieval thinker now? Ever heard of not hanging the son for his father's crime. What did the Palestinians have to do with any so called Muslim invasion (name ONE Palestinian accomplice). Moreover, your argument holds no water, what about the displaced Christian and other faith Palestinians who have lost their homes also, they couldn't care less about Historical Muslim invasions.
(2) Are you sure you're not a communist. Happiness is dependent upon individual THINGS, both material and immaterial. It is a question of individualism and personal preference, yes, most THINGS which give people happiness overlap with other human beings, Your idea of a happy time doing a bungee jump might be my worst nightmare! You cannot define what happiness is for the whole world. Coincidentally, the Palestinians would be happy if they got their home back!!!!!
(3) Read up. Read up. Dangerous beliefs you hold. Many Jews accept that Muslims and Jews co-existed peacefully in many Muslim nations. Indeed, Jews are still living in many Muslim countries to this very day (Even Iran!). It is sad that you see this issue the way you do because for whatever has happened in the past you are making retaliation acceptable and lawful today despite the target being innocent. Again, which Palestinian forced a Jew to leave his hom?. You are missing an important point, as is usual in your case, The Jews had a homeland Demsci it was called Palestine. The Jews of Iran have a homeland Demsci, its called Iran. The Jews of Egypt have a homeland Demsci, its called Egypt, and so on and so forth for all the Jews in Tunisia, Algeria, Libya etc etc These Jews are not being treated like the innocent Palestinians in Israel, If land is not important why is it so important for the Jews to illegally possess Palestine, care to comment?
(4) Kindly let the Palestinians know that they've been fightiing for what they mistakenly thought was Palestine all along! They're so stupid!
(5) That's your opinion. In the real world it's called genocide and ethnic cleansing.
(6) So why did the Jews take over Palestine in the first place? Surely, over time they should have got used to the idea that Palestine is a long established sovereign nation and many Jews and Christians are living there in peace anyway.

Moreover, you keep talking about the so called Muslim Invasions. For the sake of argument lets say you are 100% right. They were invasions and the Muslims stole hoards of land from other nations and expanded thus. Now, the difference is the people living in these conquered lands ARE Muslims. There is nothing stopping them from going back to the faith of their ancestors (if that is your argument). THEY ARE THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLES OF THOSE LANDS. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN FORCEFULLY REMOVED. The Turks have always been Turks, The Egyptians have always been Egyptians, the Saudi Arabians have always been Arabians, the Punjabis have always been Punjabis, the Sindhi's have always been Sindhis, the Bengali's have always been Bengalis and so on and so forth. They were not superimposed upon or removed from their land and robbed of their homes. The only thing is that they have retained Islam and kept an Islamic identity something that they can discard at free will if they choose. In Palestine, if the Palestinians (both Muslim and Christians) converted to Judaism (the fighting would end tomorrow). So you cannot contrast the Palestinian issue so crudely in the manner that you do.

Demsci, you need to rest your brain, your mind is all over the place. Go on holiday, I hear Turkey is nice this time of the year. Peace.

OK, Kabirlaw,

We best agree to disagree agreeably. We are so miles apart on this.

You see, on this website the ex-Muslims are much more of my opinion, it is so hard to come to a real good agreement with many Muslims.

On this website they tell about Islamic history, about precisely HOW the Muslims conquered lands, then HOW they treated the former inhabitants, after killing and enslaving a lot. In my opinion The Muslims, but also the Romans before them, were many times worse than the Jews. But now I see that you do not even acknowledge, yes, the terrible deeds, guilt, shame of Muslims that we now know. That is why FFI is so necessary, Muslims do not even acknowledge the horror that Muslims of old caused. Or now cause. That may make that you still feel Islam is superior and entitled to much or even all power which we oppose in the first place. That is why I say that we Democratic people get a much better deal with ex-Muslims.

If you don't acknowledge the many horrible slaughters, rapes, oppressions, jizya-payments, be assured the rest of the world does get informed about them. FFI, Islam Watch, Jihad Watch are in it for the long haul. New generations shall be informed. If you show us that other people ALSO did atrocious deeds, OK. But denying the atrocious deeds of the Muslims? By saying the citizens of those countries are now Muslims? We KNOW how that came about. If you keep this sort of arguments up I am so glad to be informed by FFI, Islam Watch, Jihad Watch.

Look for instance at what the Copper kid drew about the killing of Um Qirfa.

My whole point was; Let us for arguments sake say the Jews DID something terrible (big concession of me), then still you must forgive and forget, settle the dispute and move on with life. But you do not even acknowledge the terribly bad nature of Islamic conquests! You still maintain only the Jews did the most terrible things! You haven't read a single article or book about Islamic conquests on or of this site! You think 80 million dead Hindus is a fabrication probably. Oh, maybe the Muslims just killed 8 million? But they did kill, in an agressive war against Indians, or do you deny that too? Etc, etc. Oh, you are good at pointing out the bad deeds of the whites, but that does not exonerate the Muslims versus the Indians.

and when you finally acknowledge the atrocities of the Muslims in the past, it is then that in order to measure with one stick, you must forgive the Jews and let them have their country.

IBNSAHR you still fail to answer my challenge. And than you say that i dont answer yours. Typical.

MEGHA WROTE: Koran- 4:34…happy reading!

ANSWER: Why dont you actually read the verse. lets look at this together and DEMSCI maybe from this you can see how beautiful this verse really is.

[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, ** and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

Can you see MEGHA, if the woman dont listen than we first talk to them, if she still dont listen we desert them in their bed or use other form of neglect. So the quran is forbidding any sort of and any form of physical acts which may harm the woman. And only as a last resort you may hit them. Lat resort.

The beauty comes towards the end of the verse. whereby it says if the woman listens than you may not touch them or transgress.

And in another verse allah clearly says allah hates the transgressors.

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight against you, but do not aggress. Allah does not love the aggressors.

So now you find me a verse similer to this from any other scripture in the world which even comes close to this abundance towards womans rights.

Other scriptures go against woman. Read your own scripture yourself MEGHA, I bet you didnt even bother to look at the site I put forward cause if you did you would have seen the proof that your own scripture teaches that woman are nothing but a slave to their partner. This is what you GITA teaches. And who cares If i got the information from muslim sites. The context is from your religious book.

DEMSCI you also pointed this verse out. Now you live in a european country. You tell me how many men beat their wives. In the UK the numbe rof wife beatings rises every year. If people had fear of GOD and followed the quran, you would never see wife beating.

And wife beating in the UK happens over petty matters. My ex had cigarettes tips ploued into her body, which left permanent burn marks. Amuslim didnt do this. And the guy done it because she didnt listen. Now if this guy followed the quran, both of them would have sat down to discuss the problem and this matter would have been resolved.

This is what you call guidance.

Hi londonspirit please refer to 4:34 , Yes it is indeed a happy reading to the followers of sex driven, womaniser and a pedophile who declared himself as the prophet of some imaginary deity called allah.

PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great

-------> This verse is clearly proving, that in first place there is no equality in genders, why should male excel over the female? In muslim majority dominated state like Pakistan one saw Late Benazir Bhutto in Power & in Bangladesh there was this Shaikh Hasina, so should we say muhammad and his mouth piece allah was wrong as he failed to envisage the power of women. Is being obedient the only quality of good women? Why should allah fear of rebellion. Well a wife can be as faithful a companion as a husband. Oh! may be when you have multiple wives like muhammad there is always a fear of rebellion. What a grevious penalty that also a threat of rape in bed and scourging if they resist. Ha ha if they obey (Submit) leave them alone ...that is Islam for you Women. What a merciful bully called allah.

To All Y'all

Lets keep this simple shall we. Check this out.

You know that the Holy Prophet Muhammad is a role model for Muslims and Muslims ought to follow the way he was. YES. Agree do you? OK. I'll move on.

Now. Refer me to a single historical source where the Holy Prophet Muhammad beat/scourged any of his wives. Just ONE reference. Surely, the way you make out the Prophet to be a pure hater of women then there ought to be millions of references about the Prophet beating his wives. He also had many wives to beat in the first place, so all of them should have received a couple of kicks and punches every now and then.

Then, locate the sources where the Prophet's wives were being argumentative and confrontational with the Prophet and check out his reaction. Did he beat them? Errm No he didn't he actually became upset and solitary.

Because my Holy Prophet is my role model I shall follow his example and never hurt my wife ever in my life.

Go figure you fools.

Hor calebsingh james bond.

Chak de Phatte!! Brrrrrrrrrrrup, Phangra pa oi.

OK, LondonSpirit,

Once again you are right; American, European, Russian and all sorts of men beat their wives. There may be UN Statistics about it. But in my new style of reacting I say: But Muslims are not superior in this respect. There is plenty of evidence that Muslims beat their wives too, and the Quran has one verse about it and Islam does not stop it and presumably never has stopped it. Once again superiority of Islam is refuted in one aspect of human behavior.

Of course other members of FFI will not be satisfied with a draw and will say how much worse Muslims are. They will point out that in Turkey 85 % of the women say it is normal that your husband beats you. That wife-beating is not even an issue for the police in Islamic countries. Many ex-Muslima's experienced wife-beating first-HAND and testify how common it is under Muslim men.

Kabirlaw, there was this comic of copper kid and it showed that Muhammed, in order to control his wives, who were upset because he had slept with the coptic maid Mariah, despite a promise not to to Hafsa, threathened them all with divorce. And divorce would have meant a slow death to them. So right away, they submitted to him. No beating, but very intimidating treatment of them by him.

I am sure you did not know or acknowledge that and that YOU are a very decent guy.
Only please don't defend those other Muslims who think it is ordained, allowed, normal.

LS,
its not fail, me and you, we don’t see it eye to eye, so moved on, there is no point trying to make blind man see,

Just like you said :”punishment for adultery is stoning to death” if you still remember, it comes from your mouth from above post?, and I say, where in quran says that?, I know it didn’t literally says ‘stoning to death’, but that’s your book, prone to misinterpretation and can be interpreted as you pleased.
(please answer my question if you can, where in islamic books says that??)

So when you asked where in quran says allowed to kill innocent, then I ask you question, did quran make differentiate between innocent non-believer and guilty non-believer, so when your quran says kill non-believer, its indiscriminate killing that could happened to innocent people, like 9/11, the funny thing is may be most of the kill is islam sympathizes or lefties.

just because they unbeliever, may be they innocent, never hurt anyone, never have had prejudice for anyone, never looked women with lustful eyes, but they don’t believe god who act as a pimp for men, so there you go "kill unbeliever" = "kill innocent"

LS,

Yes, I see it is a last resort, but beating your wife should not be any resort! Many Muslim men (including my ex) use it as their first choice!

No one has still answer my questions regarding custody laws! Why?

As for you, Kabirlaw....I have no tolerance for cruel people...Hindu or not! Would I have tolerance for a Muslim who chooses to act like a decent human being....yes! Do I care if he or she prays 5 times a day to a pimp God and his pedo prophet....as you wish...do I have problems with wife beaters, child rapists, murderers, child marriage, women being treated as 2nd class citizens...yes! Yes indeed I have a big problem with this!

As far as the caste system.....read up on your vedic scriptures buddy! Common knowledge, huh? hmmmmm......guess my family is just different, perhaps......

Again, I ask....why can't a Muslima marry a man outside her religion and how is this giving her equal rights to men....I see these questions are being avoided like the plague!

1. The Hindu Woman has no right to divorce her husband.
>> The constitution of India provides full rights for both men and women to divorce. If you think otherwise, then quote with original verse from 18 puranas, 4 Vedas, and Upanishads.

: 2. She has no property or inheritance rights.
>> Again the constitution of India reserves 50% of parental property to daughters. Here is how a man supposed to treat his wife: Let the man offer Vedic prayers in front of her, behind her, at your centre, and at her ends. By doing so, let God’s inviolable grace illuminate her home with good fortune and dignity (Atharva Veda 14.1.64). What you have quoted from Manu Smriti is fabricated beyond the point of recognition. If I followed your footstep, I can as well say “Allah, Muhammad, Aisha, Fatima, and Khadijah drank wine and danced naked in Jannat” (Al Timidhi 3.45.10). Will you accept it? So, when you quote make sure you have both Sanskrit and its English translation.

3. Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending bridegroom/family.
>> Who said? Veda Vyas, the author of Vedas was born to a fisherwoman; Agasthya, one of the humble Brahmana was born in a Potter’s family. Krishna, the most popular God of Hinduism, was a cowherd boy, who went on to marry Rukmini, a princess. Satyavati, a fisherwoman, married Parashara, one of the greatest saints in Hindu history. Chandragupt, the King of Magadh, was originally a shepherd boy. He went on to marry warrior princess. How many examples do you want from history?

4. The family of the girl has to offer an enormous dowry to the bridegroom/family.
>> Dowry was a problem in the past but not now. It is not backed by scriptures. In fact, scriptures say ““The houses, in which female relations, not being duly honored, pronounce a curse, perish completely, as if destroyed by magic. Hence, men who seek their own welfare should always honor women on holidays and festivals with ornaments, clothes, and food. (Manu smriti 58-60) Bhishma, offered jewelry to Ambika’s father before bringing her to get her married to his brother. The system underwent a total reversal in the last 300 yrs. However, the constitution writers of India realized this and made dowry a crime.

: 5. If her husband dies she should commit Sati (being cremated with her dead husband). Since today’s law forbids Sati, society mainly punishes her in other “holy” ways (see below).
>> Sati system started because of you Muslim invaders. Our Hindu women didn’t want to become prey to ugly Arabic barbarians. When the kingdoms were defeated, Hindu women killed themselves by jumping into fire. The reason they chose fire because fire is considered to be very sacred in Hinduism.

Here is the verse from Rig Veda as to how a woman should lead life after the death of her husband: “Rise, woman, and go to the world of living beings (sons, grandsons, relatives): Come, this man near whom you lie by the side is dead: You have happily lived to enjoy this state of being the wife of your husband, who took you by the hand.” (Rig Veda 10.18.8)

6. She cannot remarry.
>> See with open eyes. Hindu widows are remarrying. Visit websites such as bharat matrimony, shaadi etc. You will forget Allah taala after seeing those profiles (LOL)

: 7. The widow is considered to be a curse and must not be seen in public.She cannot wear jewelry or colorful clothes. (She should not even take part in her children’s marriage!)
>> Prove it by quoting from scriptures.

Wonderful reply sis Megha....Awesome! Great to see you quoting from scriptures. You have hit the nail hard on LS and Kabirlaw. These two Arabs will now think of using Qu-rand as toilet paper.

Why, thank you, Rationalist dada! I appreciate the encouragement! :)

I take back the punch!

Megha, You put it pretty good, but like in the ironic surah that says

they have heart but they don’t understand
they have eye but they dont see
they have ears but they dont hear
they just goat.

IbnSahr, well said.

In the first place; the texts of Quran and Hadiths can be interpreted in different ways. So; unbelievers are to be killed in war-circumstances but who decides when is it war? And unbelievers can be considered guilty, although further innocent of any crime. It is very important who decides who is guilty and who innocent and on what grounds.

LS and Kabirlaw are in it to protect their religion, their prophet. Very understandable. They can explain the meaning of Quran and Hadith (Sunnah) wonderfully and practice it likewise. But they should not try to defend other interpretations and practices of other Muslims.

In a future world some Muslims could begin to ask other Muslims: Did or do you do this or that according to Quran and Hadith? If yes, then they could say; Well, we differ in opinion about the interpretation. If no, they could say: Look, may I point out to you, that you call yourself a Muslim, but that you are acting against what Quran and Hadith teach?

Because FFI, Islam Watch, Jihad Watch and many others in the whole 21st century will precisely monitor all behavior of Muslims worldwide, there is no stopping them. And their articles will use bad behavior of Muslims as material against any possible superiority claims, rights and ambitions of Islam/ Muslims. So maybe rather than debate the observers Muslims could begin to oppose and confront Muslim perpetrators of bad deeds, who provide FFI with its material and motivation.

Megha,

I love your strong replies to LS and Kabirlaw, who can be very good, fearsome debaters.

Part of the reason some people are on FFI is that in the end they want absolute gender-equality worldwide. And they just do not want Islam or a part of the Muslims stand in the way of that ideal any more.

Ibnsahr and Demsci,

Well said guys! You guys are great posters yourselves! :)

LS,

I am not sorry for my beliefs or opinions, but I will apologize for calling you a moron. That, I should never have done no matter how much or how highly I disagree with you. It was not good of me to do that so whether or not you accept, my apologies to you for resorting to childish behavior. There are certain subject matters that cause my emotions to show and though that may be a good thing....still, resorting to cruel name calling goes against my belief and I will watch my tongue (key strokes) from now on. I sincerely mean this from the bottom of my heart so I hope you will accept it.....if not....then I have done my part as a human and I wish you the best and a successful life so long as it is good for humanity.

I have said that even though we all have differences of opinion on this site, we should respect each other and yes, I've done my part to show some disrespect.

megha well done in ur response. But that is not the response i was looking for. Was i talkin about the laws of the nation or was i talkin about the laws of your religious texts. Dont play clever an say well india has changed these laws cause i no very well that they have. But these laws are still stated in ur religious texts. Just cause it is changed in india what about the other hindus in other nations. Megha defend the verses of your book. National laws always change. Defend the laws of ur gita. People who read ur religious texts will still see these laws against woman.. So basically ur response was meaningless. I dont defend islam by stating laws of muslim nations. I defend it by quoting verses from the quran. Now you do the same. In regards to ladies jumping into fire. You say that it was because of ur muslims. I cant believe that even before muslims existed we r still blamed. My god where is all this coming from. Megha muslims didnt exist 4000 years ago ok. Woman were forced to jump into fire to avoid them being captured by opposing forces in a was. It was the mens pride an dignity that made them do that an it wasnt defo because of muslims. Lol. An its got noting to do wit sati. So now do me a favour an answer what i asked for properly

LS,

***ANSWER: Mate stoning to death is given to people who comit adultry. Now to avoid this punishment simply dont do adultry***

where in islamic books and quran says stoning to death given to people who comit adultery??
is your comment based on something or you just make it up as usual??

please give me reference, i try to check it, if its true
its not easy doing acrobatic isn't it, when your pant ripped on the crouch
a..aa..aa, just give me simple answer, what sura? or what book with the volume?

ibnsahr did u even bother to read my post previously. U would have read tat i said this works out better for islam. Because there is no law that says to stone the adulter. An so what if i said it. I dont no everythin you know. I am human an i learn new things everyday. An if u also read the post you would have read i said thank you for clearin that up for me. But i guess you didnt take any notice in reading that post did u?. Now you answer my question. Why dont you bring in context where by it says in the quran that allah has given the muslims permission to hit their wife. Abuse children an rape an lust upon woman. To me it makes no rose as i a muslim know that woman are to cover themselves. So how can an arab just upon a woman if she is covered i also know that in islam there is no sex before maraige so how can muslims rape. I also know from the verse that beatin is to be done as a last resort. The quran should be glorified for this verse. It can be also used in modern warfare. First communication. Talk about the problem. Understand the issues. If that dont work than show neglect like imposing sanctions. An than if that dont work than fight. If the world followed this principle than wars would be less. But obviously principles like this wont be followed as men have to much ego an say stupid phrases like we will not negotiate with terrorists. If u dont talk an communicate what chance is there for resolving the matter.

WHOA, Londonspirit! When you do the kindness of answering my questions reguarding custody laws and why Muslimas cannot marry outside of Islam, which may I remind you is not sharing equal rights with Muslim men since they are at least allowed to marry Christian women, I will do my best....again....and properly answer your questions.

If a child were taken by his/her Muslim father from the country of the child's mother, the mother would not be able to have her child returned unless the father chooses to. The Islamic country most of the time will do absolutely nothing to see that it is returned to the mother unless she agrees to live in the Islamic country...in some cases, that is. Don't believe me? Then read the book "For the Love of a Child" by Betty mamoudi (spelling). This woman like so many others knows from experience what cruelties are in Islam in terms of Muslim fathers. In this book, there are also other stories of women who have had their children kidnapped by Muslim fathers and either they went through hell trying to regain custody or they have never gotten their children back.

A few months ago, there was a TRUE story of a woman who has been trying to find her daughter for 12 years. The Muslim man she married kidnapped the little girl when she was 3 and took her back to Egypt...can you imagine what it is like to have a child ripped from you or at least the fear of it? No, I don't suppose you can.

LS,
no religious justification for stoning adultery..? fine.
but don't try to twist the fact that you slip of tongue

***Because there is no law that says to stone the adulter***
so why they do it in the name of islam? that means they do the killing without gods approval? even better....

***Now you answer my question. Why dont you bring in context where by it says in the quran that allah has given the muslims permission to hit their wife***

below is the answer you gave from the same post

***I also know from the verse that beatin is to be done as a last resort***
even jerry springer will not advised that

what about raping non-believer, the threat for denmark women because the cartoon, are you willing to change subject to raping non-believer were priscribed in islamic book??